Elena Armijo Part 2 - A conversation about inclusivity in the workplace and society

This is part 2 of a conversation with Elena Armijo, where we dive deep into the often-overlooked impacts of inclusivity and belonging in the workplace and society.

 "We're not aware of the impact that not being inclusive has for us as a society. "   

Elena Armijo, Master Certified Coach (MCC), Founder and CEO of The C-Suite Collective, and Certified Dare to Lead™ Facilitator has a strong track record of supporting clients and organizations in creating impact, culture shifts and leadership development. Her unique ability to identify common patterns while generating new awareness and re-invention leaves clients with the ability to make stronger choices, clearer decisions and powerful steps toward their desired outcomes. Elena offers in-depth and customized executive programs for high performers who are at the top of their respective fields – from CEOs of leading businesses to professional athletes, policy-focused individuals, entertainers, and artists, and more. Partnering with Elena, these clients have created and achieved the professional and personal impact in the world they once perceived unattainable. As a former leader and trainer with Accomplishment Coaching©, and a CHIEF Core Guide Facilitator, Elena continues to expand her work with teams across the world.  Elena also hosts the podcast The Collective Corner.

Elena Armijo was inspired to become an Executive and Leadership Coach through her work as a professional opera singer. Drawn to work with ambitious top performers like herself, she realized she could bring unique insight to the coaching business after spending many years “on the other side of the table.” Elena’s ten-year career in opera spanned across the globe and included work with many prestigious opera companies as well as performances at Lincoln Center and Carnegie Hall. Elena holds a B.M. of Music Education from New Mexico State University and an M.M. in Vocal Performance from the University of Washington.

When not traveling domestically and internationally for speaking engagements and workshops she lives in Los Angeles, CA with her partner Aaron and their sweet pups Nalle and Bailey.

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Transcript

Jason Frazell: 0:12

Hey, everybody. Welcome back. This is part two of my conversation with the executive coach and Dare to Lead facilitator, Elena Armijo, who we did part one last week, and she said something at the end of the podcast, and it hit me so hard that I immediately said to her, Elena, we need to continue to talk about this. So here we are. We're going to continue to talk about this. So Elena, It's a welcome back because we're not recording this back to back, but for the people listening, if they listen, this is like, this is like, Oh, it's like we were to the commercial break, but no, we're actually recording this, I think three weeks apart because, because of schedules, but I'm so glad to have you back here to talk about the thing and let me share with the audience what you said and then we'll do anything that you want to share before we really kick off and I have a feeling this is going to be a pretty in depth and deep conversation with some things that are not talked about as often as they should be. And I'm, I'm pointing the finger at myself here. So what Elena said at the end of that episode, she said, we're not aware we being, I think, society, society, businesses, people are not aware of the impact that not being inclusive has for us as a society, for us in the workplace, all the different places that you and I do our work. And I was like, And it's like you saw me. I was like, Oh, I don't know the impact because I'm a straight white man in my 40s over here living in a, quite frankly, I live in a New York state, which is for my political leanings is very nice, right? So it's like, it's like, I didn't know that. So I really felt. Like convicted to talk more about this one selfishly because I want to learn from you And I figured if I'm gonna learn from you Why not have a bunch of other people listening learn from learn from you as well. So that's the genesis of this conversation So Elena again, welcome back for those of you are listening back to back. It's gonna feel like a commercial break.

Elena Armijo: 2:02

Well, thank you Thank you for having me back and thanks for wanting to have the conversation

Jason Frazell: 2:07

Yeah, so let, why don't we start by maybe defining a few things. Sure. Define, I think for those listening, let's start with the, the topic of, let's start with the term inclusivity. This gets thrown around so much. Yes.

Elena Armijo: 2:24

Yes.

Jason Frazell: 2:24

And. Again, I think that we're just gonna have a conversation. I'm going to share some of my opinions here as well. It gets thrown around rather flippantly in the business world, the American business world, I think from certain companies, you hear them talk about it. And then you look at the statistics and you go, well, how do you claim to be inclusive? When you're bored or you're C suite or you're hiring practices. So how, when we talk about inclusivity, how do you define that?

Elena Armijo: 2:53

I define inclusivity as meaning that you are making space at the table for a lot of different things, diversity of thought. So the, the way that I want start this conversation as well on my side is that diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging D E I B as we know it is highly politicized in the U S right now. I wouldn't say the whole world, but definitely in the U S. So one of the things that I've done in my personal work is to get out of the context of politics and D E I B and back into the root of the words. And that's really what we're, we're also looking at the, at. In the C suite collective. So when I think of inclusion or inclusivity, I'm thinking of diversity of thought at the table and that all are welcome. That's really how we're framing the conversation up.

Jason Frazell: 3:42

Yeah. So you mentioned something about politics. My, my stance on this is it is politicized on both sides of the aisle. So it's, it's not, it's a bi, it's a bipartisan thing. It's not this party hates it. This party likes it. It gets used as a weapon on both sides to be very clear.

Elena Armijo: 3:59

Correct. Yeah.

Jason Frazell: 4:00

Hmm.

Elena Armijo: 4:01

I agree with that. And therefore it makes it really hard to talk about right now because of the way the words have been you know, used in different contexts. And I don't want to say hijacked, but that's, that's a bit what it feels like is that all of those, those words now have become so politicized and tied towards agendas that we've lost the root of what we're actually trying to create in cultures.

Jason Frazell: 4:28

Business leaders listening. I would say most people care about this. To some degree, they actually do. Most individuals do care about this. So what do you see that gets lost as it gets into more organizational or the politics or societal? What gets lost around inclusivity and DEIB takes it from a, let's agree most people care, not all, but most people care, and then it gets, it either gets lost or it's just for, feels like it's just for show.

Elena Armijo: 5:04

Well, it's interesting that you said what gets lost because to me, it's something that we've maybe never grounded in. So you know, when we say that we've lost something, I don't know that we've ever had it, you know, to begin with. And look, I agree with you. I think most people, a generous assumption of most people is that they're doing the best they can. And I really do believe that about all humans. And so if they're doing the best they can, where have we not tied? Inclusion and belonging to business. And that's really what I'm looking at, because look, this is a great heart based conversation. And I hope that, you know, we go there when you ask why it directly impacts you. You know, that's where I was looking from a couple of places around a spiritual side of the conversation and also a metric side of the conversation. But when I'm talking to organizations about this of course people want to care about humans. And if we cannot tie an ROI to it. It doesn't make sense for the health of a business. And those are the things that I think have been missing in the DEIB movement is we haven't created enough data or connected enough dots for people to see the results of the business from a different place. And. Because of that, what we've seen organizations do is they get worried about it and then they try to fulfill a quota or check a box. We've seen that happen many times over the past, you know, 50 years. What does that look like where they say, okay, we're addressing this issue from this lens, but it's always been from a lens of should. Instead of anything that's based in metrics, which I think is really powerful when we come from data. What we're seeing in cultures that have gotten away from diversity of thought is they become very exclusionary and a lot of things that are toxic start to enter the culture like shame. You know, I love Brené Brown's work for this reason because shame is rampant in organizations. Yeah. And if we were approaching this from a Courageous place or a daring place, which is, which are her words, but from my place, a place of belonging, then this would create something completely different. And I'm excited about the possibility of ROI from that place, because imagine what could be created. And so that's where we typically start the conversation with people.

Jason Frazell: 7:22

Yeah, so if we're looking at, you mentioned the spiritual and heart based part of this, I want to take it back to you, to you here, and then I'll, I'll share my, kind of like why I care as well, but I'm, why do you care so much? I'm really interested in why Elena cares.

Elena Armijo: 7:38

Well, I care personally because as a biracial woman, I've been in the middle my whole life. Right. So my, my parents are of different race and ethnicity. My mom is, you know, French, German, Irish, white, and my dad is Latin, right. Or from Spain, actually. So Hispanic and the two of them together navigating their relationship and their cultures has been something I was born into and they are even different politically. You know, one is liberal or more liberal, I would say, and one is more conservative. And even being in a household of politics, having to navigate those messy middle conversations was fascinating to me. And what I've learned in the world, being a biracial woman, especially when I don't really feel like I belong in either place, is that you have to learn to create belonging inside yourself first so that you can then be able to hear and be in any room with any person. And so a lot of my work has excavated the gold that's in the mess. And for me, there, there's so much value in being in the mess with people as opposed to having the right answer, having it handled or having one right way to get this all right. That has never yielded as good of results as just letting things be everything all at once.

Jason Frazell: 8:56

Well, You've had to look internally first, which is, from out here, is not the general message for comp, especially for companies. It's bringing it, teach us stuff so that we can learn things, so that we can learn how to do this. But I have, you're, this is the first time that I've heard somebody say around this topic, I've had to go internally first to, to work through that. So a couple things. First thing is. Love if you would share with us, you know, and the theme of impact, what was some of the impact for you being a bright biracial women, women in, in your career. And we talked a little bit about this on part one of this as an opera singer, a little bit of that impact. And then when you say I had to do the work, what does that mean for somebody who doesn't know what that means? Because that's, that is something you can own and control, but you can't control that a whole boss or that company who doesn't care. So yeah, I'd love to hear those, love to hear both of those things. I'm so curious about both of these. Thanks.

Elena Armijo: 10:02

The impact on me, we did share this a little bit in the previous podcast, but what, what the direct impact was is I had to figure out who I was going to be in any given moment in any given room. So, you know, the opera industry way back when, when I first started it in 2007, professionally was pretty far behind in terms of diversity of thought. and belonging. And it's a, it's an older art form. You know, we're singing music that was written in the early 1700s or 1800s. And so there's a lot of tradition that comes along with that music that we really wanted to revere and honor. And from a place of grace, Have it be something that we pay attention to. So our roots in the industry or the, or the roots of musicians or composers. And there wasn't a lot of space for newness. And the way that we saw that directly impact that industry at the time was that we were losing donors and we were losing audiences and music that once was very relevant because, you know, opera when it was created way back then was politics, politics, people wrote to say something in the world where they typically didn't have voices to speak up or couldn't because of a kingdom or rulings or politics. And so. We lost some of that on the way towards bringing it to America. And I would say only in the last 10 years or so have we really started to see it revive with new composers and new writing that are being welcomed to the scene. It doesn't mean that wasn't happening before. There was always composers writing new music, but they weren't necessarily welcomed. And so my personal experience has been one of being, there was a lot of instances where it was controlled, or I can remember specific instances, like if you don't sing a phrase this exact way, then you will be fired. And it was the exact way based in tradition that they thought it should be instead of any artistry or any room for me to show up at the table.

Jason Frazell: 12:13

So

Elena Armijo: 12:13

that's just one example. Of many over, you know, 20 years where I had to really navigate a line of power dynamics and hierarchy and decide where were my values and where was my line, which I really think is the conversation for everyone in these organizations because we are working to change systems if we're speaking specifically about. Race, you know, which is where you and I started the conversation last time systems of white primacy then in those conversations It's taking time. We we know that we've been around for that conversation for a really long time So the in the middle of that who will you be? Who will you transform into as a person in light of the system that's in front of you now? And that's really the conversation when I say that we are going to start with you first, you know, looking at that. And when I say I've done the work, you know, it's really great. Thanks for calling it forward. Cause I say that offhand and as a coach, we say that probably a hundred times every day and nobody knows what that means. And what it means is I hired a coach and I hired a coach to look at all of my blind spots in the world and really unpack where I'd created my career from. And when we started uncovering some of those stones or some of those places that I had never looked, I found out a lot of things. I found out that I was proving my worth in the world constantly, which is not necessarily about race or ethnicity, but what it is is about belonging. You know, from a therapeutic standpoint, right. All the way back to whatever event or trauma happened in your life. And so there was that piece, but then I also had to be with all the ways that I had survived in the world with it, like masking, which is, or, or or code switching, you know, which is a very powerful conversation for most people that are POCs or people that are marginalized. On one hand, I had to really unpack what the cost of masking was for me and my soul. And then I also had to look at what a superpower it was, right? There's two sides of the coin that I could walk in a room and actually be able to code switch and mask, which it would not only was a survival skill, but it was. Now in my profession, a skill that allows me to talk to anybody in any room. So it was all confusing. And really what I had to do was get real about what I believe, what my values are, what my sense of integrity is. And then from there, choose who I was going to be in the face of some of these places that I either wanted to create or choose belonging. I'm not going to say create belonging, but choose belonging for myself or not.

Jason Frazell: 14:57

Yeah. Yeah, it's like the mindset of I belong here, regardless of the external, but it's I guess, like, I hear that as a, like a self esteem, not a self, maybe a self esteem, like a value, like valuing yourself enough and knowing about your value independent of the identity part of it. That has you long, there's something I want to share and I was just sharing with you. I was at a retreat recently and there was it was a men's retreat. There was a man of color there and we were talking about some of the things that we learned how to do. And he was sharing how he learned to walk into any room he's ever walked into and immediately scan for all the danger real or not because he was a man of color. And I was just blown. That goes back to the, and like part of the reason we're here is the impact of like, I'm a white guy. I don't. That's not, I grew up in the suburbs of St. Paul. I never naturally walk in a room and scan for danger. I'm like, wow, that's so interesting to think about what immediately came up for me and what came up for me. And when you're talking about your code switching and adapting is how exhausting that must be, that must be to have to do that all the time. When you're like in that mode of learning to operate that way in the world, that must be tiring.

Elena Armijo: 16:10

It is. And what I'll say is, you know, the thing I want to own is, is I have a lot of privilege, right? Like I have a lot of privilege. I come from middle class. I am white passing. I can walk into a room and people aren't even sure what I am. Which is holds privilege too. So I, I want to say that I certainly don't have it as exhausting as, as other people might. And what I notice is that even that has been confusing, right? Like being in the middle and being like, well, what does that mean? Does that mean that I should actually look at how exhausting it is for me? Or does that mean, wait a minute, I need to work on my privilege side and I need to look at that. And that, you know, we're in conversations about. Where you do the work what, what I've landed in, because frankly, there's actually not a lot of research out there for biracial people right now. Like they're, the conversation is not nuanced enough yet because we are still in conversations about reparations. you know, for, for people of this country. And so I think we're going to, it's going to be a long time before we even get to a conversation around what, what is the work that biracial people need to do. And so in the meantime, I'm doing all the work, right? I'm looking at my white side and everything that I need to look at own heel there, my privilege. And I'm also looking at my Latin side. Of what I need to own or what's been lost or what I want to reclaim. Right. And so that work is many layers deep, but I think the most important thing, you know, in the C suite collective, we talk about a three phase approach with organizations and the first step is getting real and that's actually like what we're doing right now. We're getting really real about what's on the table or what you know, versus what I know versus like, what can we, what's the soup we're swimming in right now? And then the second stage is belonging to self. And that's where we spend a lot of time with organizations. Again, going back into what are the places that you've forgotten about? What are the places that are costing you something? What are the places that could be exponentially created in a different mindset that would produce. It's not necessarily more, but different because more would be part of the same system, right? So those are the conversations we're in. And I just, I am so appreciative of you wanting to have this conversation at the next level because what I said at the end of the podcast was even you in a system of white supremacy Is may not be aware of what it's costing you. Right.

Jason Frazell: 18:40

Yeah.

Elena Armijo: 18:40

And, and oppressors or people at the top of a paradigm that are winning, winning or having power dynamics are also losing, but it doesn't look like that. And it doesn't, you don't experience it like that because there is so much privilege and so many things that are winning above others, but when you slow it down, You can really find what it's costing you.

Jason Frazell: 19:03

I'd like to go into that here in a minute, getting present to what was coming up for me around that too. Yeah. I want to get into that, but Elena, I'm just feeling called to see if you have any, any questions for me so far. I don't know. I just, I want to. Put that out there.

Elena Armijo: 19:21

Well, I'm curious. How have you experienced inclusivity and belonging in your life?

Jason Frazell: 19:27

Yeah. I've experienced a lack of it for sure in how I was, not how I was raised. My parents are amazing, but I grew up in. About as white bread as you can. I grew up in a suburb of St. Paul, Minnesota, and I graduated at a big high school with 550 kids. And we had one black kid who came in our senior year. So I had no. I had no real experience. None of my friends were of, of color. And then I went to, to a college that was, it's big, but I, you know, you naturally grouped with the demographics. And I'm glad you asked me this because then I moved to New York city in 2005. And I'm like, wait. There's a lot of different types of people and these are great people and realize the the inclusivity of like it in New York, I started to work with folks of BIPOC and Started to become friends with them and the inclusivity is like I didn't really even I hate the term I don't see it because I think that's just To say you don't see somebody's color is like, this is my own opinion, just being really real, it's kind of bullshit, because that would mean that you're actually not paying attention to them. Right, but not only that, but you're actually like, yeah, but also like, you're then not acknowledging their actual identity. Like, it'd be like, I don't see color. I may not see what it means about you, but I am going to see color. But like, just getting to know folks that way, and then, Starting to really, my wife and I, and my wife works at a very inclusive company historically, very modern tech company, where she started sharing her experiences with me when she, she had some folks that were transitioning or were non binary, a lot of different like racial profiles and just talking about like, It doesn't really matter and I never thought it mattered, but then I realized I came in with what like most people do with my own thing because it's only my experience from my childhood and then earlier in my 20s and how I've experienced it now, I think coming to now is, is, you know, the work that I've done as a coach and the trainings that I've done is, and I've coached a lot of folks that are not like me. Sex, race gender, gender, or sexual orientation, and just coming to realize, I'm just speaking my truth is, we're all the same, it doesn't really matter. Like it matters and it doesn't, like it matters, your identity matters greatly, but we all want the same stuff, and when you like, when I can relate to people that way, and I would assert that might be true for organizations too. in many ways. And what gets in the way is all the, all the normal human crap that gets in the way of most everything.

Elena Armijo: 22:19

Yeah. Well, I love that you said human crap. Cause that's actually those are the things that I think keep the systems in play. Right. And you're right. I think everybody does enjoy diversity of thought and expansion and who they are. And that's, that's really what I heard in your share. So thanks for sharing it is that you got to experience other people in unique ways and therefore see, well, well, what did it, what did that do to you?

Jason Frazell: 22:46

It definitely expanded my, my like purview is what I would call it or my, it's like, you never know until you walk a mile in somebody else's shoes. I've been fortunate to have some pretty deep conversations with people not like me, but even just observing. And again, just going back to my childhood is, you know, When you're raging in such a homogenous way, I think I just assumed everybody was like us and like, which is, I think like again, that the psychology that is, I think that's a, that's a basic human structure that humans, we like to do, right? Like who's like me. So I can feel a sense of belonging. Let me connect with those people and let me assume some things. So I don't do a lot of work. And just knowing that isn't always the case. It's been really powerful for me. Again, like You know, we were going to get a two in it. We went through the same coach training program. My biggest breakthrough was opening my heart and being like, you know what? People, people are amazing, whether they like you or not. And I don't know that I fully saw that before. So that has been a really great experience of inclusivity for me. And then I'm a lot happier because I'm less judgmental. And it's not necessarily about D. E. I. B., but just people in general, which then, of course, because they're people, they're like, oh, I don't know. I'm not really sure. That person, that person is acting, what I would say is, quote, I'm doing air quotes, quote, unquote, strange, but like, is it that maybe that's not strange for them versus like, oh, that's strange because I label it as strange. Mm hmm. Yeah. Which is a really much more fun way to go through life at the end of the day. That's what it comes down to. It's much more enjoyable. It's what I'm all about.

Elena Armijo: 24:25

Expansion. Well, and I think that's actually a piece of what we're all talking about here, you know, from expansion in the world of happiness and fulfillment for everyone. And I love what you said about the piece where, oh, one second, it was great. Well, I guess what I want to pick up is the piece where you said I get to experience other people and expand my mind and who I am in the world. And what I love about that is that is what's possible for everyone. If there's diversity of thought in the room, including people who don't traditionally get opportunities to do that.

Jason Frazell: 25:01

And you want

Elena Armijo: 25:02

to be careful. Then we get into conversations about appropriation, right? And what does that look like, right? As we expand into that. But what I, what I think is really interesting about what you said is, you know, when we look at power dynamics in the workplace and people that have been told to normalize to one norm, that's what I was going to say. I heard you say like, it was so easy to think that this was normal, one way of living I love all of the beautiful research that's come out in the past 15 years around even neurodiversity and how we've been treating it as a diagnosis or disorders and what if we were treating it as gifts. And that norm or neurotypical wasn't the centering, right? Like that wasn't everybody needs to come to the center and meet in neurotypical land, but that we all have differences of thoughts and that neurodiversity is actually where the gifts are of innovation and creation and creativity. And if it was treated like that instead of, Oh, these people need to learn how to be normal. Or to meet us in normal, how much would change? And I think it's the same thing with race. You know, the thing I want to say about white supremacy and organizations is that typically the people who have the power that are at the top, traditionally we've seen that be white men or white women at the top. They, when I say that they're losing too, I want to be really clear about what that means. They're losing out on experiences of being in community with people. Because think about it. If you're at the top, chances are. You're racing pretty hard to stay at the top. I don't know anybody who's ever been at the top who doesn't work really, really hard to not lose the spot at the top. And that's a normal, that's a normal human response. But what that does is it causes the same thing that we're seeing other people struggle with who aren't at the top. Cause you're still burned out. You're still overworked. You're still overproducing, you're, it's still costing you sleep and all the well being issues that we see in the coaching land. You're just coming from a different side of the coin. So you're doing the same things, but the only difference is yours is to keep the top and other people's are to get to the top or to get to a place of equality. And so if we were having a completely different conversation outside of that, and we really were grounded in. What if all means all and power dynamics weren't used for anything other than Acknowledging what's there and then being together and bringing people along. What would we create with ROI?

Jason Frazell: 27:36

I want to get into the ROI piece here. Is that that's kind of the the head based Impact, but we but I think you and I are in agreement based on what we've been talking about at the end of the day, that is what moves the needle in a business at the end of the day. And so I think it's acknowledged as important before we go into that part, maybe to wrap this up, I want to ask you about blind spots that you see working with leaders around this, because I know you get, you and the C suite collective, you get hired a lot for this sort of work. What are some of the, like, they know they have A problem or maybe they don't think it's a problem, but somebody's like, Hey, we need to do some work around this. But what are the blind spots that of leaders that you've specifically worked with? And what is the impact for them? Not just as the leader, but as a person, like as the whole person, when they start to acknowledge us, and it might be working with a coat might be learning just, but like the impact of all these things, kind of going back to what we talked about is what are we missing out by not understanding the impact of that? And I'd love to hear some tangible examples from people that you've worked with.

Elena Armijo: 28:44

Yeah. Well, there's been a couple leaders. I'll start with the ones at the top that maybe didn't have. Didn't weren't bought in, but their company says that they need to write. Those people are the ones that I do work with in that arena. All the work we do is to slow down and look at what the impact is on them first. Because

Jason Frazell: 29:05

again, Sorry, Elaine. I want to ask you and you say they're not bought in. Can we clarify? Are they, they don't believe it's important to the bottom line or like, what is it?

Elena Armijo: 29:15

Conversation. Yeah. They don't believe it's bought into the bottom line. It's like, look, I haven't met any leaders at the top that overtly like hate humans.

Jason Frazell: 29:23

I have not come into

Elena Armijo: 29:24

contact with that person one time, right? Like they're weird. That would be weird. And also,

Jason Frazell: 29:29

yeah,

Elena Armijo: 29:32

and you know, I think they're, they're holding a lot and there's a lot going on there, but what I find is that when they're like, no, this doesn't have any impact for our company. They're missing some key points not only for their experience as a leader, how could it go differently instead of how heavy it probably is for them at that moment. And I really mean like with overwhelmed burnout. stress, all of these things that we talk about at the top, being lonely at the top, not having anybody in your circles to mastermind or co create with. So there's that impact. But from a business standpoint, you know, some of the things we're seeing is that when people don't want to be in a company with a toxic culture, they don't want to They don't care how much money they're making. They don't care what title they have. They don't care if they're in the job of their dreams. If they are not valued and seen, they're going to leave and they're going to find another place to be. That's an alignment with their values. So the very first measure of ROI that we can look for is if people are in seats that they love and they feel supported and seen and are in alignment with their values, they're probably going to stay. And they're going to be some of your legacy people. So when we're recreating culture from, from an environment where people actually want to stay and build and grow, that's the first piece we talk about is legacy. So what's the legacy that you want to create and how does that directly correlate to your culture? When we talk about people that are. Scene felt heard. Their voices are welcomed. Their innovation is welcomed. We see increases in sales of products. That's a very specific example that I have where all of a sudden somebody who was producing at one level is now producing at five times the level that they were because they are in flow with their ideas and they're not being shut down. So therefore they have expanded their wings and their own leadership to be able to show up to the table and bring more. And they're more invested again from the previous conversation of their values aligned with your company. So now we see people in the right seats. We see people staying longer and we see people producing more, but I would say more from a place of culture and buy in. They're bought into the product or whatever piece you're selling in the world because they believe it from a different place. So this isn't just more for capitalism to create more, more, more in a white supremacy structure. It is to slow down and actually say, do I agree with this company? Do I agree with what they're doing in the world? Do I want to support it in the world? And then how can I bring my, my gifts to the table to do that? And these are the companies in the last five years that we've seen start to edge forward. These are the companies that in the middle of a pandemic or in the middle of a recession or in the middle of an election year. Are still doing okay. And are not like laying people off.

Jason Frazell: 32:19

Yeah.

Elena Armijo: 32:20

So when I talk about ROI, I talk about what are the business results you want to see from a holistic, healthy place, as opposed to the old model of systems and business first over people.

Jason Frazell: 32:33

Yeah. I have a lot of thoughts, collecting my thoughts. Like that was a lot. That was a lot of, a lot of, a lot of powerful stuff there. I think why don't, why don't we wrap it up? I'm trying to think how I want to wrap this powerfully. I think what I'd, I'd like to talk to anybody listening right now who feels, feels this in some way, who feels this. I, I'm sure you've heard this a lot too, but I hear this a lot regarding age. Yep. Age. Generally younger. And I'm smart, Ivy League educated many times, like smart, but they did, there's this deference to experience and age. I coach a lot of folks in consulting companies and this is like a thing. The partners doing their thing and it's kind of like command and control structure. And I'm just really present to a conversation, how they said, I have so many good ideas, but I don't say anything. But, and so, so age is something we haven't talked about here. I think it applies in some ways where people feel discriminated against against their age, of course, as well. And no matter what it is that people are not feeling like a sense of belonging, what would you say to them in terms of how do you practice it going differently? Hmm.

Elena Armijo: 33:55

Well, that's so good. I'm thinking about one of the workshops we ran last week where we literally had everybody just sit down at the table and we created some agreements. Of what the intention was for the conversation, what the parameters were for the conversation, what we could commit to within the conversation, and then getting some feelings out on the table and moderating some of the breakdowns that were happening in the space. Okay. And that's where I would start, you know, like get a mediator to support you with some of those things first and what emerged. Was really beautiful conversations around what each side had to bring and where each side felt unheard

Jason Frazell: 34:35

And

Elena Armijo: 34:36

from there a plan was co created about who they were going to be for each other moving forward so just that simple conversation whether You know, it can grow over time into business results, but starting there Is the getting real place

Jason Frazell: 34:53

isn't it as you say it, I'm thinking, I'm like, this is so simple yet. So not simple. Yeah. You're like, wait, wait, hold on a minute. So I just want to be clear. You had people sit down, you agreed what the conversation is, and then you allowed people to be themselves. And the magic was amazing,

Elena Armijo: 35:09

right? And you helped me and then they, you know, and when it got gnarly, cause it does, we took breath, we did somatic work, we slowed down, but the agreement was to stay in the conversation. Yeah. And nobody left.

Jason Frazell: 35:21

Yeah. Wow.

Elena Armijo: 35:23

And if they needed to leave, we took a time out and we said when we were going to come back. And then we honored that. Right? So there's a lot of ways you can start, but it really can be just very simple from the very beginning to figure out what's actually going on.

Jason Frazell: 35:37

Yeah. Now, I think I want to wrap here with talking to the leaders listening, people leaders. Cause it's great to be, it's great to be the person who wants to feel more of a belonging. And a lot of this in my experience in my career is dependent on how your leader shows up or your, your management chain. So I want to talk to the leaders. Now you hear this all the time. I hear this all the time. I want my team to have a sense of belonging. I want to have their own. I have a sense of team identity, individual identity. I want them to be happy here. And a lot of companies that is a big, like where my wife works, that's actually a measurement. that she is specifically scored on is do you feel like your manager supports you trust you do you have a sense of belonging and can you show up however you want so for leaders who are going you know what I know that there's people on my team who don't feel safe or don't feel heard and want to own their impact and do something differently what would you say to those leaders and yes they need to be doing their work too and To me, if the leader can start to do this and model this, that's how you can make exponential change happen over time. Because that's how you make the cultural shift. So I'll just say, if there's a leader here who says, Hey, Elaine, I want to, I want to really work with you, or I want you to work with my team and with me, on how we can really create this, this sense of belonging on my team. And all are welcome, diversity of thought, diversity of identity and all these things, but I'm just not sure how. Inside of the confines of a company. Yeah. What, what would you like? Well, yeah. What, what would, where would you go with that?

Elena Armijo: 37:11

I would say the first thing is let's have a conversation about what you're willing to do. So that would be the very first place to start is as a leader, what are you willing to do to change this? And it's, it is, what are you willing to do and who are you willing to be? So of course, we're looking at being in that conversation, but really like, let's get really real about how far you're willing to go with this conversation to create the vision that you see. And then when we know what that vision looks like and where you want to be, it is starting the hard conversations about what can you own? What have you not seen? What are you scared of? What can you share transparently to model transparency in real time? And what can you own about trust being broken that has people not wanting to show up?

Jason Frazell: 38:03

That's

Elena Armijo: 38:03

some of the deeper work to start with and that's just the start.

Jason Frazell: 38:08

And is that is that generally something generally something that's one on one work because they're gonna They may, they may need to, that's where you'll help them do their work there so that they can show up with the team in preparation for that.

Elena Armijo: 38:19

Typically we start with one to one, but if it's a small executive team that wants to do this work together, we can do it in group setting as well. But I think our line in the sand is if the leaders don't want to do it first, then this conversation won't change anything. So just like you said earlier, They have to go first. Right. So that's really where we just start.

Jason Frazell: 38:39

Yeah. You know, like otherwise it's like, yeah, let's just all call it out. We're checking a box here. We're, we're doing what we're checking a box. One of the things that I like to ask when things like this come up or variety thing, what for? And they're like, Oh, cause it can help. Well, like what for like, Oh, Elena, we really want to blank blank. You probably have this in, I call this like a, it's almost a sales conversation. That we really want to blank, blank, blank.

Elena Armijo: 39:03

Mm hmm.

Jason Frazell: 39:04

What for?

Elena Armijo: 39:05

Yeah, exactly. What will that lead to?

Jason Frazell: 39:07

Yeah. And then they're like, they're like, wait, nobody's ever asked me what for. It's just the thing we're supposed to do.

Elena Armijo: 39:10

Yeah, exactly.

Jason Frazell: 39:12

They're like, we want, so we lower our attrition. Is that really all you care? Is that, is that the only thing you want? And so it's, at the end of the day, I just, I love the work you and the C Suite Collective are doing around, like what you just said is helping leaders own their impact and there's always something. That leaders can own it doesn't mean they will and by they I'm speaking to myself as well leader in many ways of my life And so for the leaders that are listening, what's a way that they can start the work? If somebody's just thinking right now, cause like I know how my brain works, I don't know about you, but like listening to a podcast, I'm like, Ooh, I feel convicted. I feel seen. Oh, there's things I can own. Like I can go talk to Elena tomorrow, but today I'm in the car driving home to see my family. What's like, how do people get present to that? Cause you mentioned a couple of things you mentioned, what can we own, but also like, what do I not know?

Elena Armijo: 40:07

Yeah. What do you not know? Which is a hard question to ask on your own, right? Because we don't know what we don't know, but you could ask, what do you, what is, what have you been sitting on? That you're afraid of addressing what's been in the space that you know is there the elephant in the room that you haven't touched or that you've tried to touch, but you've given up on or you're resigned about, that could be another great coaching question. What are you resigned about right now? What do you think is not going to shift? And then getting really clear on what the choices are around that to move forward towards your vision.

Jason Frazell: 40:42

Beautiful. Elena, thank you so much. I'm really glad we were able to come in, get deeper on this conversation. Thank you for being with me as I'm just asking the things that over here, I may, I may not know. No, that I may not know. I really appreciate you sharing your truth about both your past, what you're doing now and the, the idea that like one thing I think we, we do have in common is we have a commitment to this and I hope that this is inspiring for everybody listening and that you all go out. And do something to make a change in your life or your organization. If you're a leader, or if you're like being willing, like you said, being willing to do the work yourself so that you can show up in that room, no matter how you identify and go, I belong here because that, and I will leave with this, that's the feeling I've had my whole life.

Elena Armijo: 41:32

Yeah.

Jason Frazell: 41:33

White guy, white guy in sales. I'm like, you know what? I'm selling other white people in sales. This is fine. I belong, I've never walked in a room and like that person's dangerous, that person's dangerous. And so this is the feeling I've had. And I want that, I want everybody to have that feeling because I didn't choose this, just like nobody else chose how they were born and this is the reality. So I think it's important and the diversity of thought and action and different perspectives, perspectives will make such a difference for this. world. Such a difference for this world, which is what matters the most. So thank you, Elena.

Elena Armijo: 42:06

That's what I believe. Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Jason Frazell: 42:10

All right. Thanks so much. Take care.

42:12

Thanks for listening to another episode of Talking to Cool People with Jason Frizzell. If you enjoyed today's episode, please tell your friends, follow us on Instagram and Facebook, and give us a shout out, or take a moment to leave a review on iTunes. If something from today's episode piqued your interest and you'd like to connect, email us at podcast at jasonfrizzell. com. We love hearing from our listeners because you're cool people too.