Talking to Cool People w/ Jason Frazell

Sheila Wilkinson - A Conversation About Expectations

• Jason Frazell • Episode 56

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Sheila is back!  Sheila Wilkinson, a seasoned coach, author, and licensed clinical social worker, dives deep into the psychological and social dynamics of expectations. Sheila and Jason unpack the impacts these invisible forces have on our personal and professional lives.

"When we expect of others what we expect of ourselves, we will always find pain."

Key Takeaways:

  1. The Four Types of Expectations: Discover how expectations we have of ourselves, others, and of us, and those we presume others have of us shape our interactions and self-perception.
  2. Communicating Expectations: Learn the importance of explicitly communicating your expectations to prevent misunderstandings and foster healthier relationships.
  3. Self-Reflection on Expectations: Gain insights into how reflecting on your expectations can lead to personal growth and improved mental health.
  4. Managing Unmet Expectations: Explore strategies for dealing with the disappointment from unmet expectations, focusing on adjustment and realignment.
  5. Practical Steps for Expectation Management: Implement Sheila's practical advice on managing expectations through self-awareness and communication to enhance your well-being and interpersonal connections.

Sheila M. Wilkinson is a Louisiana Licensed Attorney, a Louisiana Licensed Master Social Worker, an Educator, an Empowerment Coach and Consultant, and the host of two five-star podcasts: “What Would Sheila Say?” and “Build Your Joyful and Thriving Lawyer Life” Podcasts. Sheila combines her love for the law, social work, and education to help lawyers, creatives, and other service-based professionals and business owners transform pain, frustration, and unreasonable expectations at work into happiness, success, and healthy boundaries, so that they can achieve their personal and professional goals.

https://sheilawilkinson.com
https://www.linkedin.com/in/smwilkinson/
https://www.instagram.com/sheilamwilkinson/

📩 Go Download: Start setting Boundaries and resetting Expectations today with these Plug-and-Play Free Scripts @ https://sheilawilkinson.com/scripts
🤿 Go Deeper: Listen to Sheila's "Managing Expectations" Spotify Playlist (Episodes 3-6 from Sheila's podcast, "What Would Sheila Say?" @ https://open.spotify.com/playlist/2vOsylmsRV5u9nxsSDePDe?si=803ee2ff552e4c39
🎭 Go Connect: Get insightful, actionable, and practical reflections from Sheila, usually about once a month @ https://sheilawilkinson.com/connect
🤸🏽‍

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Jason Frazell:

Everybody, my guest today is second time guest Sheila M. Wilkinson for that's the last time we're going to use the M. That's how she is here on our recording platform. Sheila is first of all, a friend and she is a human friend. We were joking about she's a human. She's a friend, good friend. We know each other through a really cool community in terms of what she does. She's a coach. She's an author. She is a speaker. She is a licensed clinical social worker and she's a practicing attorney. In the state of New Orleans, or in the city of New Orleans, the state of Louisiana.

Sheila Wilkenson:

No, New Orleans is its own third world country. New

Jason Frazell:

Orleans is. I was, I was good at geography. I know this. State of Louisiana, which New Orleans is based inside of. Sheila, so good to have you back again. I say you're becoming one of my Saturday Night Live people. You've been on multiple times now. And I thought we would kick off for the audience and share what you shared with me in terms of the card that you drew. And I believe over 200 episodes of the first person. to show me a card you drew for the episode. So what did you draw for us today?

Sheila Wilkenson:

Yeah. So I have this deck of cards. It's called thriver cards and a client actually gifted these to me a couple of years ago. They're handmade and the card is should is an asshole.

Jason Frazell:

Should is an asshole. So everybody, which is my

Sheila Wilkenson:

favorite, which is my favorite saying of all time. Should is an asshole. Should is an

Jason Frazell:

asshole for everybody listening. Sheila actually has a real card. It looks like a playing card. She held it up to the camera. It actually says shit as an asshole. Those parts are very cool.

Sheila Wilkenson:

Yes. I will take a picture of it So you can include it as bonus content on

Jason Frazell:

bonus content that this is this is the paywall content It's very expensive But maybe for the listeners we'll do it. I asked her to share that for a reason We're going to talk about a topic All of us deal with all the time. I would say every waking minute, this is a topic that we have. It's something that Sheila works with her clients with. It's something she speaks about. It's something she's very passionate about. And I know that you've had to do your work to get to the point where you are around this topic as well. And that topic is ex, expectations, expectations. We're going to talk about the different types of expectations. We're going to talk about the nefarious, the nefarious part of expectations, the good part about it, and We're going to have some practical things here. Some, some things you can do. Yeah. If any of this resonates with you, and I can guarantee it's going to resonate with you. So everybody's listening, going expectations. They're going to go, Oh yeah, I got a lot of those on me. Or I have a lot of those at other people. We're going to talk about all those. So Sheila. Welcome back.

Sheila Wilkenson:

Oh, well, thanks for having me back. I love being a repeat offender.

Jason Frazell:

Repeat offender.

Sheila Wilkenson:

But with joy and love, come on man. Joy and love,

Jason Frazell:

repeat offender. Yeah, I'm a repeat offender

Sheila Wilkenson:

of love.

Jason Frazell:

Repeat offender of love and joy. Yeah, just came up with that on

Sheila Wilkenson:

the spot. I love it.

Jason Frazell:

Yeah, we're gonna, we're gonna do a lot of improv here too. So Sheila, I think where I'd love to kick it, kick this off for all of us is to talk about The four types of expectations.

Sheila Wilkenson:

Sure.

Jason Frazell:

And before we do that, I don't, I leave this to you. Do we need to define expectations in the context that we're talking about it today and then what the four types are? Yeah. So I will,

Sheila Wilkenson:

I will do that. Yeah. Okay. Well, I'm glad to be back. Thanks for having me back. And I'm really excited to talk to you about expectations because that's like the thing I could talk about all day long because remember, Shud's an asshole. So expectations are messages. They are lessons that we have learned throughout our entire life. They are things that we don't even know that we have learned, but that we've integrated and Consolidated and somehow have internalized them for good for worse for yuck. And so when we're thinking about expectations, most people say, yeah, I have a lot of expectations on me, but we rarely think about the expectations that we have of others. Instead, we think about expectations that we have of others as a frustration and annoyance and aggravation, being angry, being bitter, being disappointed in others, not realizing that those are also expectations. So there are four types of expectations. These are my, obviously, there are more subcategories of expectations, but these are the four major ones that I'm dealing with on a day to day basis with clients and with myself, with family, with friends. So the first kind of expectation are expectations that we have of ourselves, and I'll tell you the four and then we'll go back through them.

Jason Frazell:

Yeah, please.

Sheila Wilkenson:

And then we can talk about them individually how you like. So the first type of expectations, like I said are expectations we have of ourselves. The second type of expectations that we have are expectations that we have of others. The third type of expectations that we have are expectations that others have of us. And then the fourth kind of expectations, which are my personal favorite,

Jason Frazell:

these are the best.

Sheila Wilkenson:

These are the best are the expectations that we think others have of us. Which aren't real spoiler alert. So going back. So I gave you the definition of an expectation of my definition of an expectation. It's a message. It's a lesson that we've learned that we've internalized the expectations that we have of ourselves. My experience for myself and with my clients has been that the expectations that we have. aren't actually ours to begin with. They are societies. Yeah. They're societies. They are our parents expectations of themselves that were never fulfilled. And therefore they made those expectations become our expectations to live vicariously through us. Expectations, these lessons that we've learned from the media and social media, depending on depending on your generation as you listen and your friends and your family and, you know, advertising and the clothes that you put on and the stores and, you know, all of the things that come to you. As you are human being a human out in the world, and they start from the moment that you're born, right? Because even before I would even argue before you're born, because when you develop the ability to hear right in the womb, someone's whispering to you and talking to you before you've even taken your first breath, right? And so Expectations are all around us and it can be as something as simple as when you were seven years old, you were walking down the street and somebody says, Oh man, I love those shoes that you're wearing. And you, you know, you get a little, yeah, I love these shoes too. Thank you. And somewhere something goes boop, boop, boop, boop, boop. And clicks into your brain as a long term memory, as a lesson learned that the only way a stranger will notice you is if you have nice shoes on.

Jason Frazell:

And

Sheila Wilkenson:

it's so innocuous that you don't even realize that that is a lesson that you've learned that you got that attention and then therefore you you have a you have a shoe habit. Yeah, you're in your 40s and you've got a room for your shoes, right?

Jason Frazell:

I feel seen. And so, yeah, you feel seen. I don't have a, I don't have a full room, but I do have some shoes. Not a full room, thank God. I definitely

Sheila Wilkenson:

have less shoes than my, than my partner does. That's very true. Well, Sheila,

Jason Frazell:

Sheila, I want, if we could pause for a minute, I just, I want to bottom line something here is the way I understand it is a lot of the, what we would call the category ones, expectations we have in ourselves.

Sheila Wilkenson:

Yes.

Jason Frazell:

Either stem from, or are actually not expectations we have in ourselves. They're learned from either category three. Or potentially Category 4.

Sheila Wilkenson:

Yes.

Jason Frazell:

And for us, and we're going to talk about at the end of this, some tangible ways that you can work through this for yourself is around this, but that's a, to me, that's really fascinating that the, a lot of the things that we put on ourselves, I think most of us know this intellectually, but we're not present to, I'm, I'm speak for myself.

Sheila Wilkenson:

Correct.

Jason Frazell:

Yeah, of course. I know there's all sorts of things that are told me every day, but I, but I, I internalize that as, Oh, this is what I need to do because it's how I feel about it.

Sheila Wilkenson:

Right.

Jason Frazell:

Fascinating.

Sheila Wilkenson:

And you've been taught to feel a certain way about certain things. So if you think, okay, well, I need to, you know, I'm going to, I need to wake up every morning at 6am so I can go work out even though you're dead tired and you want to go to sleep. Why do you have that expectation of yourself? Where did you learn? The only time you can work out is at 6am. And where did you also learn that sleep is not. As important as working out. Right. Like you can't, you can't sleep is the most important thing you can do for your body and your health. But somewhere you learned that that wasn't the case. That's an expectation that the don't get me started about anti fat bias, but like, just the society has taught us that we're supposed to go, go, go and be productive and work out every day and burn those calories. And like, that already is not actually an expectation. Yeah. Maybe that you actually have of yourself. It's something that you learned. So there's a question of whether that is actually real or not. And then we'll talk about the practical piece. I think at the end, we'll come around with an expectation, you know, kind of a little exercise for your, for your listeners.

Jason Frazell:

She look, I want to, I want to, yeah, let's go. We'll come back on an exercise. I want to get your take and speaking for yourself. And I'll probably have some examples from my life too. Where this is not, like, the expectation on herself is not a, not necessarily a good or a bad thing, but I'm curious about today, here in 2024, your life now, you've done a lot of work, personal development work, and this is something you talk to others about, what are some expectations that you know are truly something you put on yourself? Like, do you know as, and I'm, I'm thinking of some of the things that, the way I filter that, is if there was no external influences, would I still believe it to be true, or would I still want it?

Sheila Wilkenson:

Yes.

Jason Frazell:

So what are, and let's, we'll riff on this and I'll share a couple that came up for me, but what about, what about for you?

Sheila Wilkenson:

I think, I think the way you've just described it and defined it for yourself is as accurate and concise as you can. Yeah. For me, so we'll talk about an expectation, an expectation that I, that I gave up. So I like to joke that I gave up Lent for Lent. Because I didn't like the, the idea that for 40 days I sacrifice something as if I were humbling myself because I was expected to do so as if I weren't already sacrificing and or humbling myself. So one year I was just like, I'm giving up lint for lint. That didn't mean that I don't sacrifice, right? But it meant that I shifted the expectations that I had of myself during that time. I was never a person that said, I'm going to give up chocolate. I'm going to give up caffeine or what. I didn't do that. What I did was give of myself to others. more than I normally did in those 40 days. And so made myself more available, held space for people, volunteered more. I did that kind of stuff for Lent. And I said, you know what, this is silly. Why am I only doing this 40 days out of a year? Like, I want to do this every day. This is what I expect from myself, from my, from my own values, my own, my own core values. So now I have two goals every day. One, to make a stranger laugh, and two, to be a better person today than I was yesterday. Those are very clear expectations that I have of myself, and how I want to show up in the world, the impact that I want to have, and to bring joy to somebody else's day. Maybe might need that joy. Yeah. And so that's an, that's an example of how there was an expectation on me. And I took the power back in the control and said, no, I, I, yes, I agree with this. And also, I don't want to just do this for 40 days out of the year. I want to do this every day. And I want to give of myself and be present with people every single day. How can I do that? And I said,

Jason Frazell:

tools. That's beautiful. Can I share, can I share two things that came up for me as we're talking about this?

Sheila Wilkenson:

Yeah.

Jason Frazell:

I'm asking you, like, I need your permission. Maybe there's an ex, maybe there's an onset expectation here. Oh boy. Maybe there was?

Sheila Wilkenson:

Yeah. I mean, you're, man.

Jason Frazell:

Sheila, am I supposed to be asking for permission?

Sheila Wilkenson:

Jason, how do you feel about this one?

Jason Frazell:

Just kidding. No, so, so, and there's a lot of things for me, but two things that came up for me is One, to have fun every day. Nobody's ever told me that's something I need to do. As a matter of fact, that's not always viewed as, by society. Doesn't mean that I have a ton of fun every day things happen. This has not been a fun week, a fun week for me for a variety of things as we've been talking about. But to do something fun for myself every day. Pick up the guitar, read a funny news article, play a video game, whatever the thing is, laugh. Yeah. Yeah. And the other one, and the second one that definitely came up for me is to do some sort of creative thought or something creative, however small it may be. For me, a lot of times that's playing my guitar and playing something that's improvised, but other times that might be like writing something that's interesting. And nobody's ever told me that I need to do those things. And those are two things like I'm To me, it's like the coach training program I would do. Those are the things I'm committed to outside of what, because my wife's not, my wife, if I walk in, my wife's not, Hey, did you have fun today? And did you do anything creative at night at 10 o'clock when you go to bed? Like, she's not no expectation from her. And there's a lot of, there's also a lot of like, as a parent, there's a lot of things that I just expect of myself. And yes, those are societal as well. Yes. And they're aligned to my core values of being that. whether or not society said that from like a more moral and integrity perspective. So it's really interesting. And I wanted to say all that because there are things that we have expectations of ourselves around that are beautiful and it's what makes us each unique. And that as we talk about all four of these categories, there's no right or wrong with any of this. It's just ways to look at it so that you can be more aware. So you can make, to me, what's important here and you and I as both coaches is you build awareness. You can make choices instead of being beholden to the way it's always gone. So yeah, that's what I had for around that.

Sheila Wilkenson:

Yeah. And you, and you, and to talk about awareness, you know, intuitively, instinctively, we know what we want. Right. Yes. We know what we expect of ourselves and we know what we expect of others intuitively instinctively. The question is, are you aware that that's an expectation and we'll talk about the other three right but are you aware that that's an expectation and have you communicated that that's an expectation because. Should as an asshole, right? Like I should do better. I should work out more. I should eat healthier. I should work more, whatever it is, right? Where does that come from? And does that actually belong to you? Because it probably doesn't belong to you at all. And so, you know, talk about, you know, raising kids and things, you know, my, so I lost my parents when I was young. My dad died when I was 12 and my mom, when I was 16 and I raised my sister who's eight years younger than I am. And. It was always expected that I would help my, my, my mom out with her. And when When my, my sister was born a year or two after that, both of my parents were diagnosed with HIV. And so I really kind of became that person who took over, you know, really a majority of the care from a day to day perspective, you know, supporting my mother. She didn't tell me that she expected that of me. I thought she expected that of me, which we'll talk about, right? But And, but I also expected it of myself because I was raised in the church. I was raised in the expectation that if you can help someone you do without regard for how that takes from you and these are a lot of things to unlearn over, you know, Over four, four plus decades, right? We won't, we'll just say four, we'll say four plus decades.

Jason Frazell:

There's an expectation on this podcast episode that we don't need to fully out Sheila's age. I've said my age in this podcast many times.

Sheila Wilkenson:

I feel, you

Jason Frazell:

know, somewhere between this and that. Yeah.

Sheila Wilkenson:

Yeah. So anyway, so just, but just to say, you know, it's, it's, It's, it's one thing. So to go back to, to the, you know, intuitive instinctive, now we're in an age of quote unquote, right? This like enlightenment, this intellectual age where we're thinking about things and we're trying to make sense of things in our brains and we've disconnected from our bodies. So you actually said it, you said, you know, how can I reconnect my, like my feelings to what's actually happening in my day to day? I'm paraphrasing you. Right. But this is essentially what I received from you. Yeah. And And that's an expectation that you have of yourself to do that, but we don't call it that. We just kind of go through life and have our mind make up these narratives and these stories about why we should be doing things and what expectations we have of ourselves to always show up or to always pick up people at the airport or always, always whatever. And always say yes, even though we really desperately our bodies scraping. No. Yeah.

Jason Frazell:

So yeah.

Sheila Wilkenson:

Expectations we have of ourselves.

Speaker 2:

The Talking to Cool People podcast is brought to you by Jason Frizzell Coaching. Jason works with amazing people who are looking to find and develop their passion and purpose and create their journey to wherever it is they want to go. Check us out at jasonfrizzell. com, Facebook, or on Instagram. Jason loves hearing from anyone who thinks it would be cool to connect, to be coached, to Or to be a guest on our show, email him at podcast at Jason for sale. com or DM him on Facebook and Instagram. And now back to some more amazing conversation on talking to cool people.

Jason Frazell:

Yeah. So second one. Expectations we put on others. I can't think of anything that I, any expectations I have on anybody else, but maybe that's something that comes up for others. No, I'm just as a married person, I'm like, Oh my God, there's so many.

Sheila Wilkenson:

Yes.

Jason Frazell:

Yeah. So let's talk about these. Let's talk about the things we put on others.

Sheila Wilkenson:

Yeah. So expectations that we have of others. So the first one was expectations we have of ourselves, right? So we're going to flip the script a little bit and the expect second is the expectations that we have of others. So the expectations that we have of others, we might not even realize that we have. Of them. And so you mentioned the Detroit the Detroit talk, which is, you know, part of why we're having this conversation now, because

Jason Frazell:

it's

Sheila Wilkenson:

this framework of expectations. A friend of mine, I was, I don't know, in my very early twenties and I was having a not great night and We had gone to dinner, really stressed out about my partner, not my current one my previous one, my most previous one, actually. And I was really stressed out. I was feeling betrayed. I was feeling really just frustrated and angry and bitter. And I was getting out of the car and he said to me, he was like, Hey, Sheila. And I kind of, you know, kind of leaned back in and he goes, when we expect of others, what we expect of ourselves, we'll always find pain.

Jason Frazell:

And

Sheila Wilkenson:

in that moment, everything changed for me because I realized that I had expectations of my partner that I didn't actually communicate and I was upset that that my partner was not acting, thinking, feeling, behaving the way I would. And. That night changed for me in that I realized that I hadn't communicated it. I needed to give my partner a chance to have communicated it to them, right? And then, then whatever happens happens. And so the expectations that we have of others are about us recognizing that we have an expectation of someone else to put the dirty dishes in the, in the dishwasher, not directly in the sink or to take out the trash because you don't like going out. Side after dark because you're afraid that somebody's gonna rip you off the street, right? Like whatever, whatever the, whatever the maybe completely irrational reason might be, if we don't communicate that that is a thing that we expect of them, then they can't ever fulfill that. Like meet that expectation. They can't exceed the expectation. They can't reject the expectation and they can't negotiate the expectation. And so what happens, and I see this a lot, especially with married couples, right. What I see a lot in business owners too, especially business partners, people who are own businesses together and they're on two different planes. I'm like, have you talked about these expectations? They're like, well, no. And I'm like, let's start there.

Jason Frazell:

Yeah. Let's, let's communicate.

Sheila Wilkenson:

Let's communicate. Right. And it's, but it's, it's about being explicit and specific about what exactly you need. Yes. It's scary. Yes. It's risky. Yes. They might be upset. And we, as a society have conditioned people to not upset other people, except the only thing that can come really truly can come from communicating your expectations is your own piece, which is the only thing you can control about having said what you needed from somebody and whether they, whether they did it or didn't do it is a different story. But the expectations that you have of others are a big place where if you're not communicating them, you're going to find frustration and annoyance and aggravation and bitterness and anger and disappointment. But literally all you have to do is communicate it to them and then have a conversation about it. And if they're not a person that you think you can have a conversation with, or they're not going to be willing to receive that, then that already tells you information. So we don't shift the expectations we have of ourselves to subsume ourselves or subvert ourselves because someone else isn't able to rise to that occasion, you know,

Jason Frazell:

my assertion would be that category number two. Is where most of the relationship breakdowns happen in life. I'm just, I'm thinking very tight personal conversation. Things, but also things like politics and we're like, you know, you watch these large groups like I'm just thinking like UN things and all these things where people just can't agree. It's because there's all these unsaid expectations that how people are going to operate that they don't. That's brilliant. So my encouragement for the audience here would be, have you communi like the actual question, we're going to get into some tactics a little bit in a little bit, but like, have you communicated those things or are you actually aware of them? Thank you. And this kind of goes to, this goes to another one of these, but I'm thinking for myself as a married person, how do I think my spouse should be acting like I saw my parents? operate. Oh, well, my mom did this, my dad did this, and this is how they focused in their marriage or did this or didn't do this. So then isn't that how marriage is? And then that becomes like, Oh, my expectation where I don't even know that this is an expectation. So that's brilliant. So now we have, that's

Sheila Wilkenson:

an expectation of yourself that you didn't even know that you learned.

Jason Frazell:

No, I learned, right. And an expectation

Sheila Wilkenson:

of, of your spouse that you didn't even know that you learned to have that expectation.

Jason Frazell:

Yep. And as two married people. Our spouses come in with different expectations because they have seen things modeled differently. So that leads us to number three now, which is expectations others have of us.

Sheila Wilkenson:

So in the same way that we have, so in the same way that we have expectations of others, people, other people, all kinds of people, including strangers on the street that you have no previous relationship with. Also have expectations of us and in the same way that we want to be explicit and specific and clear. about communicating our expectations that we have of others. Other people will not be that. Other people will not be explicit. I mean, unless they're me, they won't be explicit or clear or, or so specific that, you know, without a doubt, yes, I can absolutely do that. Or, nah, I can do this, but I can't do this. And can we do this instead? Or like that negotiation piece, right? Those four things that I was talking about. And so, This is the same but it's just flipped on its head and that now the burden still so the burdens on you to be aware that you have expectations of yourself the burden is also on you to be aware that you have expectations of others and that you've communicated them or not and now the burden still remains on you which is I know it's a heavy burden to bear but once you get into the habit of of clarifying and asking for clarification. It's easy. It's like second nature. Snap, snap, snap, snap, snap. It will just come and it will feel so good. So with this third, you have to, the burden's on you. The responsibility is on you to ask for clarity, specific and explicit expectations that another person has of you. So think about now some of these things. society teaches us, right? Like you go into a classroom. If you're not the teacher, you sit at a chair or a desk and you look towards the front of the room, right? We've been taught that, but maybe I don't want you to do that. Maybe when you come into the room, I want you to talk to not sit down, but talk to someone else who's already in the room with you. You wouldn't know that unless I explicitly said that. I had that expectation of you, right? The same thing for the expectations that others have of us. If we don't know that we're expected to talk to the other people in the room and not just pick a chair, we're going to do what we've been taught to do without even questioning that that's actually the expectation. And so it's on us to ask for clarification and specifics and explicit, explicit information about the thing that's expected of us. Otherwise, the other people will get annoyed with us because They'll say in their brains, I don't understand why he's not putting the sink, you know, putting the dish in the sink or whatever. Right. But if I don't know, then I can't help. But it's also on me to make sure that I understand what the expectations of myself are right

Jason Frazell:

now.

Sheila Wilkenson:

Yes, they have some responsibility and clarifying and telling us but. They're not going to unless they know that they're supposed to, which means that you have to teach them. Now, you know, this, y'all, you cannot unknow what you know. Now go spread. Yeah, just go spread the word, spread

Jason Frazell:

the good word, spread the

Sheila Wilkenson:

good word. And, and so that that third piece is a flip to that. And so, and it leads into the fourth kind. Yeah. And that is the expectations that we think that others have of us. And so that third type of expectation is a flip, right, to that second kind. But the third piece leads us into the fourth kind of expectations, which is the expectations that we think And so those number one, these are my favorite,

Jason Frazell:

these are amazing, these are my Sheila, I, if you would just write, let's not even say the suspense, give us the example that I heard you speak about, because that room full of people about the airport. The, the, the room of people we were with, everybody's like, Oh, how that makes perfect. It's like, it makes such sense because we've all been there. So let's start with the real life example of where this shows up. Sure. One, one example.

Sheila Wilkenson:

Yeah. One example of how expectations that we think others have of us. So in the Detroit talk, we had the example that I gave was about picking people up at the airport and how, you know, So let's say you're like, okay, my aunt's always coming into town. I'm going to pick her up from the airport. That'd be really nice for her. But she never actually asks you to pick her up, but you're just like, she's coming into town. I'm going to go get her. Of course, I'm going to go get her. That's an expectation you have of yourself. Yeah. But she's never actually asked you to actually come and pick her up at the airport. Okay. No problem. And then at some point. You realize that she's starting to come in during the day, right, and you've got clients and you're like, okay, I can cancel this client or I can go pick up my aunt. I'm just not gonna pick up my aunts at the airport. So no problem, couple times go by, no problem. But every time you see that aunt, she makes a little jab about how you don't pick her up from the airport

Jason Frazell:

anymore. I'm sure this doesn't resonate for anybody in their family. I have no idea. No, no, never.

Sheila Wilkenson:

Yeah. Yeah. And so what happens is that that aunt got used to and expected you to pick her up at the airport every single time because you always did that, even though she didn't ask you to do it. And not having ever been asked to do it, you thought, well, maybe this isn't something I need to do right now. I have other things that I need to take care of. And therefore you shifted the expectations you have of yourself, which then kind of snowballed out of the expectations that you thought others had of you that the expectation you thought that your aunt had of you to pick her up at the airport. And then you see her at family events and she makes little jabs about how you never see her anymore. You never pick her up from the airport and you think to yourself, well, you, you don't ask me to pick you up at the airport. And also, You know, you can, you can ask me for that, but if I don't know you need it, then I'm, I can't just give you all of the time just because, and that kind of stuff comes up all of the time

Jason Frazell:

where then,

Sheila Wilkenson:

but usually it comes up because there's an argument about the thing that went unsaid.

Jason Frazell:

Yeah.

Sheila Wilkenson:

So with that aunt, she never asked you to pick her up. You just always did it because you thought she wanted you to, or you actually wanted to whatever the situation was. And when you stopped because you weren't being explicitly asked, then that is where the trouble begins because there was an unspoken expectation about what the actions of each person were going to be. And when one person. basically breaches that agreement. Yeah. Talk about in a contractual terms, like this implied contract that you have that when she comes into town, but maybe you're always the person who picks people up from the airport. I know I was always the person you're coming into my town. Number one, I'm going to pick you up at the airport. Number two, I'm going to feed you before I bring you to the place where you're going to sleep. Yeah. Which may or may not be at my house, by the way. And I was always that person. You know, how many times I was running out to the airport every week. Lord have mercy. Like I was going to the airport three or four times a week picking people up, never being asked to be for people to pick up. I would just offer it. And at some point I was like, I can't keep doing this. So I just stopped and it caused some issues with people who were, who became used to me picking them up every four or five months when they came into town. And I just stopped showing up. I just said, you know, Glad you're coming into town. Let's catch up when you get here. And they're like, Oh, you're not picking me up. I'm like, I'm not going to be able to do that. But it wasn't until they're like, Oh, I guess I'll have to figure it out. I mean, and then there was a point where I was like, well, I'll just call you a cab. That is not my responsibility to get. someone from point A to point B. But these were expectations I had of myself about hospitality and, and hosting and, and caring for people and showing them, showing them what to avoid and where not to go and what to eat and what not to eat. And all of this stuff was all mixed up, but that was an expectation that I thought others had of me to begin with, to begin with they, if they never asked me to go to the airport and pick them up. Why did I go and pick them up if I wasn't asked to do so?

Jason Frazell:

Yeah

Sheila Wilkenson:

And then what happens is when we do things without being asked to do them we create the unspoken expectation and we create this This like push pull of our time and our talent and our energy and our treasure because people expect those things of us because we've done them before. And this is, you know, and right, obviously as a coach, these are issues, but as an attorney, I'm also dealing with these issues with business owners who are going outside of the scope of their contract, who don't have a contract to begin with, or don't define the scope in their contract. Don't get me started. And, and so. Helping to articulate what the actual expectation is and a lot of times when I'm, when I'm working to build these contracts packages with small business owners, they're like, well, you know, we should do this and this and this. And I'm like, should is an asshole. Number one. Number two, why do you think you need to do that? Well, that's what they expect. Do they actually expect that from you? Well, I've always done it. That's not the question. The question

Jason Frazell:

is,

Sheila Wilkenson:

do they expect that of you? Have you asked them? Because 99 percent of the time, if you, if you ask the person, Hey, do you, do you, do you actually need me to pick you up at the airport? And they'll be like, no, baby, you're fine. Just you, I'll see you. I'll see you this weekend at the party. And I love you. And thanks for, you know, thinking, even thinking about me, people don't expect that of you. You think that they expect that of you, and then you get yourself into these situations where then communication breaks down, relationships break down, and then you, you create cluster of problems that spiral out of control and sever relationships simply because you haven't had a conversation about it.

Jason Frazell:

Yeah, brilliant. I, I had this funny image of you at the holidays and people are opening their opening their, their gift from Sheila and they're like an uber gift card. What an interesting gift. What are you sending me a message that I want to go back to the first category expectations we put in ourselves. And the same scenario, it might be as simple as this. I love to have people feel welcome as soon as they arrive in my city. I love to see the look on their face. I love to give people a hug as soon as I can. Then the expectation is, what are you committed to? Oh, I picked them up not because I have to, because I, because I truly want to. I miss this person. I love them. I want to take them to eat because I'm proud of where I live. Like you live in a great place for food. And that's the difference between, oh, this is the way it should be. Or I'm thinking for me, this example would be the way I was raised. And there's nothing, like, and I am somebody who would likely pick people up, yeah, but you show up for other people. Your family comes into town, you pick them up they don't need to be paid. They've already, so, like, for me, the way this would show up would be, well, they've already paid for a plane ticket. We sure, certainly shouldn't put any more financial, financial, it's the least we could do. They've taken their time, their energy in there, but we don't, but you know, like, Most people don't talk about it that way. The least we could, they will say that, but what we're actually saying is, well, they've sacrificed. So now I need to sacrifice. Like, that's what I'm hearing and all that. So that's a brilliant fourth place. And I think we're going to go back now and we're going to talk about ways to take a look at each of these things in a way. And one of the things I said to you before we started recording is let's give everybody some practical ways to look at these. Cause this. It's like almost everything else in coaching. It's wonderful insights, but if you don't do anything with it, it's just going to keep going the same way. Sheila, before we go back and we go through some practical and pragmatic ways that people can take a look at these in their life and create change if that's what they want.

Sheila Wilkenson:

Yeah.

Jason Frazell:

It is our expectation they will do so, but that's just Sheila and I's expectation.

Sheila Wilkenson:

But it is explicit.

Jason Frazell:

It is explicit, but I would also say if you're, if you're with us here listening to Sheila and I right now, You probably have an expectation. You're going to get some value from this podcast as well. Before we do that, let's talk about the skepticism that I know comes with this topic from others. You know, some, some, some of these things come up for me where I, I even look at these categories and go, I can make an excuse here. I can make an excuse there. That person doesn't get me or like that person, family history, whatever it is. So what are some of the things that people will push back on when you're coaching them around this and, and. In any direction you want. This can be like from as an attorney, as somebody that's more on a personal level, family, friends, anything you want to share with us around skepticism people have.

Sheila Wilkenson:

Yeah, I mean, I think people are skeptical that it can be that easy for one.

Jason Frazell:

Yeah, because they have an expectation that nothing is Nothing worth

Sheila Wilkenson:

having is, is, is easy. That you have to work really hard in order to get the thing that you believe you deserve to have, which is speaking

Jason Frazell:

into my soul. Sheila. This is a, this is a long held expectation on myself and probably what, what nobody's ever said to me.

Sheila Wilkenson:

Yeah. Well, I mean, but society teaches us that, that we have to work hard, right? In order to be worthy or to have value, yeah, or to be productive or to, you know, put out into the universe, whatever. The other piece of the skepticism that I see often is that They don't often at the beginning, my clients don't, they don't believe that the problem is them. They believe that the problem is everyone else, except you can't control everyone else. You can only control yourself. Jason scoffs.

Jason Frazell:

Yeah. Hilarious. I could get troll people. No, not at all.

Sheila Wilkenson:

Well, I mean, you know, this intellectually intellectually is not the problem. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, you said this earlier, right? Like intellectually, it's not the problem. We are all smart enough and bright enough. Mostly to understand that intellectually to understand what's happening and what's being said, but emotionally, and this is where the skepticism comes from, is the emotional piece of the resistance to doing the thing, because that skepticism is usually around fear of rejection, fear of abandonment, fear of losing their job, fear of losing their partner, fear of pissing off their parents, fear of that fear, right? See you next week. And for me, when I'm looking on, I'm like working with somebody and I'm looking at what's going on and I'm listening to what they're saying. I'm also paying attention to what they're not saying. And so in, in the situation of an expectation that they have of themselves, I'll say, okay, where did you learn that? Like, let's back up at just a minute. So you just said that you, that you, you expect yourself to pick everybody up from the airport. Right. And this is a personal thing, but, or, you know, I expect to. work more than my 40 hours a week of a salaried position in order to excel. It's like, okay, where did you learn that? Well, what do you mean? Where did I learn that? I learned, I mean, it's, that's normal. It's reality. Like that's your reality. So, but what does it actually mean? Like, where did it come from? And they're always, a little stumped and then they'll push back and they'll be like, well, I mean this is how I was raised. And this is that we've been told, you know, I was always told that I should always do more, don't do less and never do the bare minimum. And if you're, you know, half assing something, then somehow that that's not enough and you shouldn't half ass things. And I'm like, right. But your half assing is somebody else's a hundred percent.

Jason Frazell:

Totally

Sheila Wilkenson:

right. But there's an expectation that you acquired somewhere that makes you believe that you have to do that. Where did you learn that? And once you keep going deeper and deeper, the resistance comes off. And they realize, Oh, I just observed that in my parents as entrepreneurs or as workaholics and they were never home. So I thought, well, if I'm going to put out value and provide for my kids, I also need to work that hard. And therefore you just do it without even thinking about it. You know, a lot of my clients are overachievers, type A's, people pleasers or recovering people pleasers, reforms, people pleasers who. Go the extra mile. They're highly driven, highly efficient, effective, mostly C suite attorneys and regulated professionals, licensed professionals, certified professionals of all kinds of industries. But they're dealing with the, these expectations around the industries that they're in, in addition to the expectations inside of their family of origin. And also inside of their, their friends and their circles. And so when you're, when you're, I was going to say cutting down an expectation, when you're culling down your expectations, I think both work, cutting and culling. It's not just affecting you. It's potentially affecting other people in each of those circles that you run in. And so the resistance, the skepticism is like, well, I can't actually say that I can't actually communicate that I can't actually ask the question of what they expect of me, because if I do, they're going to tell me what they expect of me. And it's probably going to be more. Then I can give them and I say, well, chances are that's not true. You're already working 80 hours a week. They're probably not going to tell you to work more, right? They might. And if they do, we will cross that bridge when we come to it, finding you another J O B. Right.

Jason Frazell:

Yeah.

Sheila Wilkenson:

But it comes up in that they, it seems That doing like taking the step to clarify the expectation will the skepticism comes from the perceived upheaval that will happen by simply having the conversation and there are ways for us to frame and script that request in a way that feels safe and secure and where you're not putting yourself on the line and everything that you've worked for and, you know, So there's ways to do that in a way that makes you feel comfortable, right? It's like when I'm setting prices with clients, right? They're like, well, nobody's going to pay that. I'm like, how do you know that? How do you know that they're not going to pay that? Well, like, well, that's just like a lot of money. Well, Yes, but still you haven't answered the question. Why do you know, like, what makes you think that they won't pay that right? And at the end of the day you have to be comfortable with the words coming out of your mouth Which requires not only the the mental intellectual awareness of what you're feeling and what's going on in the situation but also the emotional piece of Okay, what am I feeling? Why am I feeling that? And You You know, a lot of people just say, push through fear, just push through fear, just, just push through. Don't just pretend the fear is not there. No. Like my perspective is no, do not push through fear. The fear is there for a reason. The fear is there to keep you safe and secure. That is your primal body going tiger. Let's not go down that dark alley. So, but there's information in that. Okay. What are you afraid of? Well, I'm afraid that I'm going to lose my job. If I say I, I really need to be at home more with my family. I need to do a hybrid work environment one day a week for four hours, right? That's so scary. The thought of being insecure, but how you frame it and how you bring it to your boss or, you know, to your managing partner or whomever, right. We'll demonstrate. For them, that you take it seriously, and that you have high expectations of yourself, and they already probably have high expectations of you because they know that you have high expectations of yourself.

Jason Frazell:

So

Sheila Wilkenson:

the skepticism that comes is really in the resistance to upsetting the status quo.

Jason Frazell:

Yeah.

Sheila Wilkenson:

Except the status quo is the thing that's keeping you frustrated, annoyed, aggravated, bitter, angry, disappointed, depressed, anxious, burned out, bored, broken, right? The status quo is that I call that I call the status quo, the swamp monster. I'm from South Louisiana. We got monsters down here,

Jason Frazell:

swamp monsters, the

Sheila Wilkenson:

swamp monster is when you go to take a step out of that muddy, yucky water. The Swamp Monastery is like, no, stay here. I want you to just stay here with me. It's so easy to go back into the muck. It's more comfortable. But once you don't have that muck, you can run around, frolicking and you know, run amok.

Jason Frazell:

Run amok. And

Sheila Wilkenson:

just, I wonder if that's the, Do you think that's the, no, cause I know a muck is an Inuit word. Anyway, that's, we're not going down that rabbit hole right now. Sheila just had a click, click y'all of the roots of words. I love the roots of words. I love knowing the roots of words. So anyway, so to your, to your question about the skepticism, sometimes it's that easy. It is actually that easy of just saying, Jason, I'm not going to be able to pick up the kids today because I need to run an errand for a family member. And can you pick up the kids?

Jason Frazell:

Yeah. You could

Sheila Wilkenson:

be like, yeah, of course. Right.

Jason Frazell:

Yeah.

Sheila Wilkenson:

Sure. I pick up the kids. Right. Whatever. As opposed to not saying anything at all and trying to do it all. Yeah.

Jason Frazell:

Yeah.

Sheila Wilkenson:

It's not even necessarily asking for help. It's just clarifying expectations you have of yourself and what you're capable of doing. And people around you love you. They want to support you.

Jason Frazell:

Yeah, they

Sheila Wilkenson:

care about you. And if you're in a position and a job and a job, I call a job that doesn't care about a job that doesn't care about you. I call it a job, right? That's just a job.

Jason Frazell:

Yeah, it's just a job.

Sheila Wilkenson:

If you're in that kind of environment, you're going to know right away that your expectations are never going to be met. And therefore you should. Go do something else, right? And, you know, working with people in transition. This often when people are coming to me is because they're transitioning from one, one space to another. They're going on FMLA leave, or they're going on Matt leave, or they're coming back from leave, or they're coming back from vacation. And they're like, all right, I had two weeks. How do I keep this? Feeling of goodness and joy and having taken a vacation and not wait a whole another year. What does that look like? Right? Those kinds of conversations and it's all expectations. I mean, it's boundaries and it's decision making, but it's also mostly expectations.

Jason Frazell:

Yeah, I want to give the audience a real life example of this, and I'm going to externally process this and talk this out in real time, and then we're going to give some things. So this happened for you and I here, and we obviously know each other, you've been on the show before, we know each other in other contexts. We came on to record and I record in a platform called Riverside. So I have, so I have an expectation of others of guests. They're going to show up on Riverside. It's just an expectation. They're going to do it. And that's fine and normal. I mean,

Sheila Wilkenson:

it's your process. I'll follow

Jason Frazell:

it. Right. Yes. It's your process. It's my process. And we were talking and you said, Hey, can we turn captions on? You are somebody who knows the ask for what they need. And you like to have captions when you're doing podcasts and other things. Yeah. And. Some people might go, well, it's my process. We're going to do it my way. But here's the funny thing. And I was thinking through this, the expectation I have on myself is actually, I want my guests to be as comfortable and have everything they need to have a great conversation. That is my expectation I have on myself. And I have never expressed that to others. And so there's a gap in my saying to others, to guess, Hey, would you like to use something different? Because maybe it, and for this, the feature was captions. It's probably the main thing in podcasting. You like to have captions in front of you. And you were kind enough to say, Hey, that'd be really useful to me. And you asked for what you need. And that was actually an expectation that Not only did I like giving, but it's actually, it's actually in my wheelhouse of expectations. I have myself as a podcast guest and as a friend and everything else. And I was like, so fascinated because most people would be in category four there. I think they go, Oh, well, this, this host does things on Riverside and this is where he records his podcast. And therefore we're going to do it here. Even if it's not the best solution for me and expectation that I never, and a gap in my, Number two, we did that. So that was just like a fun little, fun little way. I was like, I was like all these little things that played out between us and that interaction in a really positive way. Those are all expectations that we have of ourselves, of others and all that. And I know that you have an expectation of yourself of to be a great podcast guest.

Sheila Wilkenson:

Right.

Jason Frazell:

And so you were able to say, Hey, you know what? I could use captions because I just know I do better with that.

Sheila Wilkenson:

That was like

Jason Frazell:

a fun little example.

Sheila Wilkenson:

Yeah. And, and then to you, thank you for this. I appreciate that you you've said this and sort of explained it from your perspective too, because for me, so I was, I was a late diagnosis, auditory processing disorder. And so what that means is that my brain doesn't process verbal. input as quickly as it processes, read, write kinesthetic input.

Jason Frazell:

And

Sheila Wilkenson:

so I, the captions for me are about me being able to be present for you as a podcast, a podcast guest, but also for you as a friend. And also I have an expectation of myself to ask for what I need and I'm still learning. More than a decade later after being diagnosed to still continue to ask because there was definitely and I'll I mean, to be perfectly transparent with you, when I saw it was Riverside, I thought, Okay, I don't think the last time that I that I was a guest on someone's show and they use Riverside, they didn't have captions. And, https: otter. ai I don't, I don't want to, I don't, I just want us to record. I don't want there to be any awkwardness. And in that moment, I didn't advocate for myself. And so this time when I logged into Riverside, I was like, Oh, Oh, this again. And

Jason Frazell:

I said,

Sheila Wilkenson:

but maybe, and I was looking around and I was pressing all the buttons. Cause I'm thought, okay, maybe Riverside has added captions by now because, you know, accessibility. Right. And so But I couldn't find it. And I said, you know, can we turn the captions on? And you were like, no, but you didn't you didn't just say, Oh, we don't have captions. Jason, you went a step further and said, there are no captions on Riverside. I don't see an option. Let's switch to zoom. At that moment. I could have said no, no, no, it's fine.

Jason Frazell:

Even though it's not really as fine as you would say it's

Sheila Wilkenson:

right, correct. And that would have been an expectation that I had been taught to be a people pleaser and to not put people out. But in reality to you, it doesn't matter whether it's zoom or it's Riverside.

Jason Frazell:

You're putting me a lot. You're putting me out a lot more. By not getting everything you need to have a great conversation on my podcast. That's way worse for me.

Sheila Wilkenson:

And these kinds, so this is expectations in action, right? We don't call them expectations. We just say, okay, that was kind of a frustrating situation, but we don't look at them deep enough to say, okay, where was I coming from? Where were they coming from? Did they communicate that? Am I actually coming up with a story about what I think they want from me? Because that fourth kind of expectation, that's where all the mud and the yuck and the uhk and one of my favorites is why it's my favorite, because once you untangle that, your life can be so incredibly different. Yeah. Like night and freaking day. Yeah. With a simple conversation that takes three minutes. Yeah. It will resolve that. You wouldn't even believe the amount of anguish and anxiety and depression that a simple conversation will, will just by, and also just by having the conversation, number one, but two, framing it through the lens of expectations to say, you know what I expect of myself that when we meet and we have these coffee dates that I wait for you before you, I wait for you To arrive before I buy my coffee. But it occurs to me that maybe you might not want me to wait because every time you come into the coffee shop, you go, you didn't get a coffee yet? And I go, no, no, I'm going to get it now. Let me help. You know, what do you want? Right? That exchange isn't already shows that there was something there that needs to be addressed. And now I don't feel guilty about getting my cappuccino before you arrive. And when you show up, you get your cappuccino and we have our nice little coffee date and everybody's fine. Right?

Jason Frazell:

But Sheila, I want to say. The, what I love about looking at this topic in this way is that three of the four, we get to own our own stuff,

Sheila Wilkenson:

correct?

Jason Frazell:

We get to own our own stuff. We can never own people's other, other people's expectations of us. We can ask so we can do something about it. And we're going to transition here as we start to wrap up around what are some things people could do. But I just, I love what you said about how we put it on other people, but really we get to own our own thing. Hey, I realize I have an expectation of blank. Does that align with your expectation in our relationship? Oh, I realize that it's really important to me to this. Is that important to you? And when you can have that, I call that an elevated conversation. And from a place of mutual respect of like, we actually want this to be even better than it already is. So brilliant. So we're going to go through these now because I know you have things. Sure. For each of these. Like practically, people go, hey, this sounds amazing. I would be shocked if anybody listening would go, this doesn't sound like a better way to live. What's the next thing people should do? Yeah.

Sheila Wilkenson:

And

Jason Frazell:

how can they put this into practice?

Sheila Wilkenson:

Yeah, I mean, I think it's actually fairly easy, right? These are, I always kind of work from a place, especially with clients, but also with myself, because remember, one of my daily goals is to be a better person today than I was yesterday. That requires me to reflect on how did today go? And look, I'm not like a, a five minute journal or whatever. I can do this stuff in my head. Like, I don't need to write it down. Right. But just to be thinking, Oh, I could have handled that better. Okay. What could I have done? Well, I really would have preferred if I'd done X, Y, and Z instead. Okay. But do I actually need to do X, Y, and Z? Am I actually putting myself out? Do they expect that from me? Like having that dialogue inside or monologue inside my brain? Yeah. Or I'm self coaching. Yeah. So a big part of this, Of getting to the root of a frustrating, annoying, aggravating, angering, you know, situation is just realizing that you're having number one, realize that you're having that feeling to begin with the frustration, the anger, the disappointment, the bitterness. And maybe it's because you're doing everything that you think others expect of you. Right? But no one's ever actually told you that they expect that of you. And, and these work, this, this scenario will, this, these exam these instructions that I'll give, they apply to all of them, but usually something's going on in that fourth one, yeah? But if they never tell you that, then you probably creating your own misery, right? Like you're probably creating your own frustration without even realizing it. So part of it is the awareness. Whether it's picking up people from the airport every time they come into town or, you know, taking that call from your client or your boss at 7 a. m. right after you wake up. Right. So if you think about a frustrating situation that's going on in your life right now the first thing that you should think about. And you can, you know, just write these down or pause and grab some paper and pen. We'll put

Jason Frazell:

these in the show notes too because I know these are going to be short and tangible and I think you probably have some leave behinds too that we can.

Sheila Wilkenson:

Yeah, yeah, that's great. So the first, yeah, I have a mini course on managing expectations, with like a workbook and everything. So the first thing is whose expectations was the frustrating situation about? Right. Like, was it your expectation or someone else's expectation? And to your point of. You can't control other people's expectations. You can only ask for clarification. You can own your own. So it's becoming aware. Whose expectation is this frustrating, annoying, aggravating, whatever situation about? Mine or someone else's? Because remember, when we expect of others, what we expect of ourselves, we will always find pain. This is why you get annoyed with road rage and people who are swinging around you and not using their blinker and turning right from the left lane, whatever. So whose expectations was the frustrating situation about? Was it yours or someone else's? And you might know that right away, but I'd just also caution you to remember that there might be some layers. So it's okay to go a little deeper than what seems like on the surface. The second thing is then saying, okay, well, whoever those expectations belong to, have those expectations been explicitly and expressly communicated. If not, you can do that. You can explicitly and expressly communicate it, or you can ask for that explicit and express communication of what the expectation is, or better yet, If you realize that actually it's an expectation that you think others have of you, then you can just let it go because those are fake. Those are assumptions and as my father taught me very young, you know what happens when we assume?

Jason Frazell:

You make an ass out of you and me.

Sheila Wilkenson:

Make an ass out of you and me, right? Yeah. And should as an asshole, yeah? And so you can communicate it. Ask for the communication, ask for the clarification, or better yet, if no one's actually ever said anything to you about the thing, just let it go. Just please, let it go. Like, don't go looking for trouble. Don't go looking for trouble, right? Like, oh, do you expect this of me? Well, now that you say it, I actually do expect it of you.

Jason Frazell:

Like, damn it, more work,

Sheila Wilkenson:

right? But remember, just because somebody clarifies an expectation to you doesn't mean you have to accept it.

Jason Frazell:

Yeah. You

Sheila Wilkenson:

can choose to negotiate it. You can choose to reject it. You can choose to exceed it. And you can choose to fulfill it, but you have the choice then just because they have the expectation, you choose how you interact with that expectation or don't engage or don't. Because when we expect of others, what we expect of ourselves, we're always going to find pain and that works both ways. It's not just us. It's other people with us as well. Right.

Jason Frazell:

Yeah. That we

Sheila Wilkenson:

can control what pain we voluntarily take on and it doesn't take much to let it go. Like it can be gone in three minutes.

Jason Frazell:

So if

Sheila Wilkenson:

that's the case, let it go. Let it go.

Jason Frazell:

Brilliant conversation as always, Sheila. I want to, first of all, let's talk about where people can connect with you. All of where everything Sheila's about to say is going to go in the show notes as well, but I know you have a variety of free resources, low cost resources around this, because I know this is a, this is a topic that you are passionate about and And honestly, this would make so the world, this would just make the world a better place if we were able to have these elevated conversations. Sheila, how can people connect with you and learn more about this and all the other things you are up to?

Sheila Wilkenson:

Yeah. I mean, most of my work is in. is in three areas, right? Setting, helping people reset expectations, helping people set boundaries that stick. And then the third is helping people make decisions that feel good, right? So I have resources for each of these kinds of things. And so, as I said earlier, you know, the decisions, making decisions is about boundaries. It's about expectations, but expectations are like the, the root of all, they're the root of all the frustration, right? And so I hang out on Instagram. I'm an Instagram girl. I never thought that I would say that out loud, but here I am saying it again. A new

Jason Frazell:

expectation you have on yourself.

Sheila Wilkenson:

It's, it's the weirdest thing I'm telling you. Yeah.

Jason Frazell:

Yeah.

Sheila Wilkenson:

So Instagram is a good place to connect with me just to like kind of get in my circle and get my vibe. Yeah. And I mean, obviously you've got my vibe now, but I'm actually really a lot of fun if I do say so myself. I like it. I like how you're like,

Jason Frazell:

you're like, despite how this podcast interview went, I'm actually a lot of fun.

Sheila Wilkenson:

I am fine. No, Sheila's very fine.

Jason Frazell:

I got to test Sheila. You've been, you've been smart. This whole topic is can be quite serious and you've been smiling for most of it.

Sheila Wilkenson:

Yeah. It's also fun.

Jason Frazell:

Yeah, you want to smile

Sheila Wilkenson:

the best. So Instagram is a great place, but honestly, if like you want to have a conversation or you want to just want to learn a little more about how you can learn about yourself, whether that's with me or on your own, I have self study stuff. I have one on one stuff at group stuff is my website, Sheila Wilkinson. com super simple. And then we'll make sure that goes into the show notes. But if you actually want to connect with me and just like get in my. In my circle, in my aura. Yeah. In my energy. Instagram is a great place to do that. LinkedIn is also a perfectly fine place to do that. It's a little more fun on Instagram, but yeah, of course, but I do share the same information across both platforms. So you're gonna, you're gonna get it. Yeah. The only thing that I will say is that I don't connect with people. On LinkedIn that I don't personally know or have had a conversation with. So if you send me a note on LinkedIn, I want you to say, I heard you on Jason's podcast.

Jason Frazell:

Yeah, absolutely.

Sheila Wilkenson:

And I want to talk about blah, blah, whatever. And then I will write you back and say, thanks for reaching out. Like, let's talk about a couple of things. And we'll have a conversation to make sure that being in each other's network is the right fit for both of us. This is a clear expectation that I was going to say,

Jason Frazell:

what a great modeling of expectation. Number two,

Sheila Wilkenson:

I got to practice what I teach, man.

Jason Frazell:

Totally. That's so good. I will say that as also an expectation. If anybody ever says, Hey, I heard. Heard you and Sheila talking on your podcast. I just want to connect. I will connect with you 100 percent of the time. Yep. If it's spam or some random, like we both, we're both human and we both live in the United States. We should connect. Right,

Sheila Wilkenson:

right. Right. Yeah. That's not, that's not gonna get me because I'm, I curate spaces. I curate, communities. And I want to make sure that my people are protected the same way that I want to, you know, your people to be protected. So that's a good place. But if you're interested in going a little deeper about the mini like expectations, I have a little mini course that has a workbook and a video that will walk you through some of the things that are going on in your life right now. And you kind of get help you get. your kind of brain wrapped around it in a more objective way when you're looking at it on the paper. Yeah. And so we'll make sure that we put that course link into the show notes as well. And yeah, I've got scripts about setting boundaries, copy and paste stuff to put in your emails to make people go away and leave you alone.

Jason Frazell:

Sheila says to do this.

Sheila Wilkenson:

I look, this is exactly the thing. So to your point, your question earlier, you said, you know, I didn't know I needed permission. You have permission, you have my permission and you can say, well, Sheila said that I should do

Jason Frazell:

this.

Sheila Wilkenson:

That's why my podcast is what would Sheila say? Because what would Sheila say? She would say, just do what you want to do. Be who you want to be. Let it go.

Jason Frazell:

Brilliant. My friend, as always, thank you so much for your time, your wisdom, your energy. So glad we could make this happen. And I can't wait to get this out to everybody to listen to everybody right in. If you have anything and. We'll catch you again soon. Sheila, we're, we're moving you towards starting it live. Five time jacket status. We're getting there. Three more to go. Talk soon.

Speaker:

Thanks for listening to another episode of Talking to Cool People with Jason Frizzell. If you enjoyed today's episode, please tell your friends, follow us on Instagram and Facebook, and give us a shout out, or take a moment to leave a review on iTunes. If something from today's episode piqued your interest and you'd like to connect, email us at podcast at jasonfrizzell. com. We love hearing from our listeners because you're cool people too.

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Jason Frazell

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