Tamsen Webster is back!- Author, Speaker, Persuasive Message Designer

Tamsen is back again for another episode with Jason! They delve into the intricate dance of driving and adapting to change. . Together, they explore the depths of handling change — from personal upheavals to organizational shifts, emphasizing strategies that foster lasting transformations without coercion.

"If you act from a presumption that your audience is smart, capable, and good, you open up pathways for understanding and acceptance that are otherwise closed."

With over 25 years of experience in persuasive message design, Tamsen Webster is known for her unique approach to creating transformational change. Her work focuses on helping others learn the simplest, strongest ways to build the stories that partners, investors, clients, and customers will tell themselves—and others. It has also helped leaders at major purpose-driven organizations such as Johnson & Johnson and Harvard Medical School drive action from new and novel ideas.

As the Idea Strategist for TEDxCambridge (now TEDxNewEngland), Tamsen has honed her expertise in crafting messages that resonate quickly and deeply. She’s been the principal of the boutique message design practice she founded in 2016, helping hundreds of clients and audiences connect with the stakeholders that propel new ideas forward.

In 2023, she founded the Message Design Institute, an online learning and development hub that equips leaders and organizations with the knowledge and practical tools they need to craft persuasive messages on their own.

She is the author of the critically acclaimed Find Your Red Thread: Make Your Big Ideas Irresistible and the forthcoming Say What They Can't Unhear: The 9 Principles of Lasting Change, which offers a new, principles-first approach to persuasion.

http://messagedesigninstitute.com
http://TamsenWebster.com

Free Resource

Get better-quality, faster results from your teams with these coaching methodologies here.

Connect with Jason

If you enjoyed listening, then please take a second to rate the show on iTunes. Every podcaster will tell you that iTunes reviews drive listeners to our shows, so please let me know what you think and make sure you subscribe using your favorite podcast player. It means a lot to me and the guests.

https://www.jasonfrazell.com
https://www.jasonfrazell.com/podcasts
https://www.instagram.com/jasontfrazell
https://www.https://www.linkedin.com/in/jasonfrazell/

Transcript

Jason Frazell: 0:13

Hey everybody, thanks for being on the show today. This is a real treat. I have a returning guest, Tamsen. You are two fifths of the way to your jacket, you know, on Saturday Night Live. Oh my gosh, I hope

Tamsen Webster: 0:25

so. Yes, I have

Jason Frazell: 0:26

somebody who's like, they're like, I want a jacket. I'm like, it's going to be a really cool jacket. So you're on number two, you're not, you're not Justin Timberlake, not Justin Timberlake quite yet, but you're moving, you're moving that way out there. So Tamsyn Webster is a second time guest. You're on a couple of years ago when we talked about the red thread and some of the work you're doing around that and got to know you. We are back talking to you because you have a book coming out and it is all around something that every single one of us has to deal with every single day. And it's change.

Tamsen Webster: 0:55

Yes.

Jason Frazell: 0:57

And we are here in September of 2024 in the United States. And there's a lot of change going on and there will be change going on. Constant change all the time. For those of us who have children in school, we just have changed. Kids went off to school. We have politics. We have the country's changing. We have all sorts of things changing. And businesses everywhere are also having to change due to technology. I just going to bring this up in real time. We're literally recording this right after the fed announced a rate, a half point rate reduction, which has a massive impact on businesses. So there will be changes to strategies and such, and what they're going to do around hiring and buying and stuff. So we're going to talk about change today. And before we do that, Timpson, I'd love if you just give us just to get a real brief overview of who you are, what you do, where you're based, and then we're going to have a. Super cool conversation about some of the, some of these concepts.

Tamsen Webster: 1:47

Sure. So I'm Tamsyn Webster. I am a message designer. And what that means is that I help leaders build buy in for large scale and transformational change. So I spent a lot of time doing that. Actually all my time doing that. I love it. I've been doing it for, in one way or another for 25 plus years. It's embarrassing. So, or, or, or. I just started as a child. I wish I could tell you that. Either way. Either way. It's good. I'm based in Boston, Massachusetts. I was not born there, but I have lived here long enough to develop a Bostonian alter ego named Karen O'Sullivan.

Jason Frazell: 2:25

Karen O'Sullivan. OK. Yes. Yes. You go Red

Tamsen Webster: 2:28

Sox, hot dogs.

Jason Frazell: 2:30

Go to

Tamsen Webster: 2:31

Fenway Park.

Jason Frazell: 2:32

Fenway back change

Tamsen Webster: 2:34

back, we talk about change

Jason Frazell: 2:35

in sports. That would be an interesting.

Tamsen Webster: 2:37

Oh, my gosh. Yeah, it's been it's been up and down here. I mean, it's been it's been a fun couple of decades to live in Boston because it definitely has been like title town here. So that's that has been I've been here since well before. The Red Sox broke the curse. So I was definitely like a diehard, like long suffering Red Sox fan until 2004. But yeah, I, it's a great place. I love Boston and I love the work that I do.

Jason Frazell: 3:05

Yeah. Well, I'm, I'm glad we're going to come back on and have another really fun conversation about a topic that is serious, but also Bring some levity to it as well, because it's inevitable.

Tamsen Webster: 3:15

It is.

Jason Frazell: 3:17

So let's kick

Tamsen Webster: 3:17

off. Yeah, let's do

Jason Frazell: 3:19

it.

Tamsen Webster: 3:19

No, no. And, and, and none of it happens without talking about it most of the time. And that is really what the book is all about. Like, how do we, how do, how do we talk about change in order to make it. Less painful, less stressful, more likely to happen and more likely to last. That's really what I was trying to help people do.

Jason Frazell: 3:40

What's the genesis of this book or the inspiration? Like what has you, you are, you do a lot of different things really well. You have a lot of topics you could write about. Why change?

Tamsen Webster: 3:52

It is, it is you mentioned the red thread change and how to help people help other people make it happen, which I know sounds a little redundant, but that's, that actually is the role that I played is, is, is the red thread of my life. I, I first became interested in what it takes to create a lasting change starting when I was 17 and I had my first panic attack, but my role in organizations from both education, undergrad, grad school you know, focusing on managerial communications. I was a change management consultant for a little while. All of that has been about helping organizations. either create change internally and or through the work that they're doing, create change in their clients and customers lives. You know, with a lot of the startups I work with, they're trying to create planetary change. And it has just been the thing that I have, that I know, I know better than anything else. I'm not saying I know it better than anyone else, but it is the thing that I know deeply and to my core. Because I've been so focused on it, from so many different perspectives, in so many different ways, for so long, I couldn't help but notice that some of the, the things that I, My go to approaches and the principles behind those approaches were actually quite different than a lot of what at least from a business communication standpoint, an official quote unquote change communication standpoint teaches or if they teach it at all, which they don't. And. And so the more that I kept talking to people and the more that I talked to people about the red thread and what that approach was based on and, and other pieces like that, the more I just, I realized people were like, well, nobody else is talking about change this way. And I was like, oh, well. if nobody else is, then let me just take these principles I've been working from for a long time and testing and honing and let me put them down into a book and so that I can help that other, that process with other people work better because, you know, I, I've done the hard work on these. So hopefully they're a lot easier for people to go, Oh, all right.

Jason Frazell: 6:03

Yeah. Help, help. We're going to talk about pain in a little bit, but I'm hearing that potentially Helping businesses and individuals remove some of the, the challenges that you've had to go through as you've had to deal with change in your own life. Oh,

Tamsen Webster: 6:16

absolutely. I mean, because I think all of us, whether it's an individual organizational, everybody's had that, that experience of a change that failed. Right. You were trying to do something and maybe you, it started out great. And then eventually it, it didn't go so well, or, you know, you were successful and then it went back or you were able to get something to happen, but it didn't like the approach to it didn't feel good. And that, I will say that the most immediate Genesis of this book was, I really just got tired of hearing a persuasion and influence advice that was fundamentally. What I perceive to be manipulative, coercive,

Jason Frazell: 6:58

even

Tamsen Webster: 6:58

authoritarian. And there are times and places, maybe for some of that. I don't know. As I say in the book, there are some times when you don't, you can't stop to make sure everybody's on board for reasons of safety or emergency or whatever. But that's usually not where we are most of the time. And so I just, yeah, it is, I just wanted to find, I wanted to be able to articulate for other people the way that I have found and that I have seen work reliably for creating a lasting change, change that stays changed transformational change, large scale change in a way that doesn't rely on either, as I like to call it, the stick or the ick, right? It doesn't rely on. You know, kind of rewards or, or consequences, or it just doesn't feel good because it doesn't feel principled. It may work, but I'm, you know, there's just certain things where it's like, Ooh, one of the tip tip off phrases for me is when, when people say, well, if you do this, you can get someone to do X, Y, or Z. And I'm like, just not as comfortable with that. Because that doesn't imply that person's acting on their own, which is, a better foundation for long term change is that they're doing it because they want to. I

Jason Frazell: 8:14

think let's, let's kind of kick off as we move into a couple of these points. Let's normalize the context around change. Let's talk about organization, organizational change. Yeah. Now, you know, and let's, we'll, we'll be doing some generalizations here, but in your experience, we'll be doing some generalizations. Everybody has their own relationship to change. Some people can't do without it. It's like a drug and other people are like, nope, any change is not good for me. Well, like what, what would you say is the general context? In I don't know in the business world around the announcement of we're going to change and I'm talking about something that's gonna that will is enterprise wide right so we're not talking about like we're changing a product or changing our pricing we're talking about we're fundamentally like a like a restructure or a strategy change like a market strategy change what do you generally see is the context around around the idea then the CEO stands up and says hey I'm going to do some things. He or she's going to say we're going to do some things differently. Yeah. What's the, what's the general mindset that you would say people have?

Tamsen Webster: 9:14

So I talk about this right in the, in the introduction to the book, I would say that there's four mindsets that people have that I, that I've seen. And I call them the, the actives, the ambivalence, the indifference and the antagonists. So let's start with the antagonists. Those are the people who are like, Oh, heck no. Right. Like just from the get go, like it's because they don't, they don't want the change or they don't want the outcome or they don't want how it's going to happen or just nothing. And, and they're not only against the change, but they are. actively, they can actually go even further and be actively against it. They can be, be like protesters against it. Those aren't, that's, you know, that's, that's dangerous, obviously, because depending on how well they can make the case against you and what you're, what you're focused on they, they can do damage to that, to that change. The antagonist though aren't hopeless. You do have an opportunity, if you can make a strong case that resonates with them, to get them to at least neutralize or even potentially to swing over to being inactive. So let's talk about that. And they're at the other end of the continuum. The actives, a lot of times you, they're the ones that just go, yep. All right. I am down for this. I love this idea. I've been asking for this forever. This is, or it's my idea. So of course I love it. You know, and those are the folks that, that are actively supporting. They may even become advocates for the change. So, you know, the best thing to do there is not spend a huge amount of time. Don't tick them off, but what you can do is equip them with the to be advocates. So help them understand a little bit more about the rationalization of the change, the rationale behind the change, so that even though they don't need to be convinced, they can be your stewards, they can take the message out there for you. So that leaves the two in the middle. And this was fun because I had multiple people as peer reviewers or whatever, you know, and early readers, peer reviewers and early readers. Take a look and they're like, are there really two in the middle? And I was like, yeah, actually there are. And the difference is whether or not they actually care.

Jason Frazell: 11:39

This resonates for me already. Yeah,

Tamsen Webster: 11:41

exactly. So the indifference don't. They, the way that it, however it's been presented to them right now, they actually really don't care, legitimately don't care one way or the other. So they'll probably go along to get along. But they're also not going to drag their feet. They're just saying, I don't, it's fine. It's these are the, it's fine people. Now you can get them more active. If for instance, you can find a way to attach it to something that they actively want. And I'm not talking about external reward. I'm talking about something that they value and they've been working towards and you can say, Oh, Hey, this actually helps you do that. Then they may even become more actively engaged, but that's that lack of caring is what separates them from the ambivalence.

Jason Frazell: 12:30

I

Tamsen Webster: 12:30

think the ambivalence don't get nearly enough attention when we're thinking about how to steward or inspire a change in an organization. Because it's not that the ambivalence don't care. They do. The issue is they care about something else just as much.

Jason Frazell: 12:47

Yeah.

Tamsen Webster: 12:48

And so what's happening is they're really sitting in this tension between two things that are pretty much equally strong and are pulling them in opposite directions. This change, but I also want to make sure that this other thing doesn't change, for instance, or I want to be able to support the organization's mission, but I also want the flexibility to support my spouse in flexible child pickup or whatever it might

Jason Frazell: 13:17

be.

Tamsen Webster: 13:19

So those, these folks are important because it, that they are actively looking for information that will help tip them one way or another, right? Tip them into going yeah, okay, this actually is good. I'm going to figure this out. Or. You know, I always thought this was a bad idea, and then now I'm sure of it. So, those are folks that really are actively open to information, and so they are people to pay very close attention to, and to be very thoughtful about how is this change presented. What is the, you know, how are you talking about, again, the rationale behind the change, the case for the change the point of view that led to the change or that's leading to the change. Those are the folks that really have, that in, I say in the book, those are the folks that can really make or break the change for you based on how many of them exist to start with and how many of them end up flipping towards, towards the change rather than away from it.

Jason Frazell: 14:24

There's no there's no covert parallel here between what we're talking about and the hundreds of millions of dollars that get spent on those ambivalent people in election cycles.

Tamsen Webster: 14:33

That. Yeah. Oh no. None at all. I mean, none at all. Oh gosh. Yes. I mean, my story, I'd idealist hope for this book is that it does in fact paint a different path forward for all kinds of messaging, persuasion, those kinds of things. approaches that are less polarizing as well. Yeah. And yes, I mean, that's the thing. And I think what happens is that we talk to ambivalence, like they're antagonists, right? Like, like they're against us or we talk to them as if they don't care. And we're like, you should care. And a lot of times some of them are going to be some swing voters literally don't care. And then some of them are. So, really looking at a choice is like, well, I don't really like either one of them. And that, you know, given other work that I do so I, I'm also the idea strategist for TEDx New England, where we work with scientists and researchers, one of whom this time around is a decision scientist. And he explained. This is relevant. I promise. That when it comes to a choice between two bad options, which is an ambivalent situation, right? Where you are, you know, it's neither is great, but the choice is necessary. Or the issue will be that if they, if it doesn't, if you don't have to make a choice, those people just probably won't. But what he found is, is that a lot of times what we try to do is to say, which is better of these two bad things, but that's actually, it's almost it's like using the wrong standard or using a standard that's not as effective. What he found was in that situation, keep like with like meaning. Which one is worse rather than asking which one is better than by focusing on which one is worse, like which one gets you to worst faster. Then that's actually an easier choice. You're not saying that you actually like them, but you are saying, yeah, but that was worse. And because that one's worse, I'm going to act against that one because again, I may not like the other one, but I don't like what's going to happen with that one. So all of that though, to come back to messaging is understanding those kinds of nuances is what can help you frame a narrative, whether it's around a political stance or around a new compliance policy internally or around a new product or initiative. That's the kind of thing that can really make or break. And I don't mean. Set it up of like, this is the worst option that gets back to the pain, you know, as we have seen in previous elections, a lot of times the strongest narrative wins, meaning the strongest story that people can tell themselves about why a particular choice makes sense. Whatever organization, person, political party, candidate is able to supply that story. That, that, that really feels immediately aligned with how somebody already sees the world. Whoever can do that best generally wins. And so this book, while not specific to politicians, is about doing that, but from a, from a principle of integrity and, and, and congruence with your beliefs. So it's not about, again, getting someone to do something. It's saying, I believe in this. position, this stance, this policy, because I believe that it will accomplish this outcome, because I believe these things are true about, you know, how the world works, how people works, what this organization stands for, etc. And so, And that way, the reason why it avoids this trap of manipulation is because you're not actually trying to manipulate people at all. You're basically just saying, this is my point of view. I am going to take the risk that you don't agree. I am of the opinion that few enough people articulate that clear enough, like just your ability to articulate that is probably going to win nine times out of ten because most people don't. So yeah. Anyway, that was a lot, but no, that's fantastic, Tamsen.

Jason Frazell: 19:06

So they, I think this is a perfect segue into one of the principles in your book, which is that the primary enemy of longterm change in any context is pain. Pain. Or if I could define that even further. is pain avoidance. Well,

Tamsen Webster: 19:26

yeah, yes, exactly right. The perception or the anticipation of enduring pain is in fact your biggest enemy to a change that lasts.

Jason Frazell: 19:38

So let's talk about that. So my, I have a belief I'm going to, I'm going to share a belief that I have about the business world is that high, high level folks should have a higher tolerance for pain. I'm not talking about board or investors thing on the other side. I'm talking about people that, that have to make big decisions for the good of a company arguably should, or maybe like should is a bad word, but I believe that they should have a high level of, it's going to be painful, but I know it's the right thing and I'm going to stand in those values and in my integrity, we're going to do it anyway. And, that's my belief, it's biased, but I also see just the opposite happens all of the time.

Tamsen Webster: 20:28

Yeah. Couple thoughts on that. One is, if. I am interpreting what you're saying correctly. I also agree, but I would call it something different. Yeah. Meaning that someone who is able to say, this is going to be difficult. This is going to be hard. There's going to be a high effort involved in here. But this is worth it because I am clear. On how this is not only good for the organization and what the organization is trying to do, but it's also good for the people that actually make this organization work. I do believe this. And it's because I wish that more people did that, that I believe that those who want to be that kind of leader are willing to do the work to make sure that the messaging around that change. articulates that belief from the beginning.

Jason Frazell: 21:22

And I

Tamsen Webster: 21:22

also agree a lot of people don't do that. So when I'm talking about pain, I mean the kind of psychological, emotional, mental pain that we humans will not stand any length of time without either stopping that pain, stopping the source of the pain, or reframing something in our minds in order to reduce it. Ourselves. Yeah. Now, so the way that this comes into play though, is that some people are like, well, that, that's absolutely not what I was taught. I mean, my sales training was about making the pain of the status quo equal the pain of change. And if someone's not in pain, they're not going to move. Yeah. Okay. And they're like, but Kahneman, I'm like, I read Kahneman. I all about prospect theory and loss of loss aversion. I get it. And And the thing is, is yes, that's true. Yes. That pain, anxiety, fear will get someone to move quickly in, in, in the short term, right? Because if you touch a hot stove, you don't even think about it. That's the problem is that if you are operating from, from pain, that you are increasing, accelerating. inducing mental pain in order to get someone to act in favor of a decision or something like that. You are operating with someone who is not thinking about it.

Jason Frazell: 22:54

You are

Tamsen Webster: 22:54

operating with someone who is operating, back to Kahneman, from system one, from fast brain, from anxious brain, from a fear. Faces.

Jason Frazell: 23:05

Yeah.

Tamsen Webster: 23:05

An anxious brain cannot learn. It cannot fully understand. It cannot think through consequences. It cannot be open to new ideas. It's going to take the first available option to reduce pain. This, in my view, is where, I don't know, somewhere between 99 and 99. 9 percent of buyer's remorse comes from, right? Because you've done something in the moment, you're like, like something was, you know, made a decision at a high stimulation, and then late, or because. You were talking to a salesperson that made the pain of the status quo exceed the pain of change. And then once you had a moment to breathe, once you had a moment to sit down, once you had a moment for system two to take over, for your rational brain to go back, some part of your brain went, wait a minute. No. Right. Yeah. And that's where, because a lot of times what happens is that we realize that we were coerced or manipulated into that change. We can't tolerate that we made, might've made that mistake. So we're going to turn it on whoever made or drove that decision in the first place. We shoot the messenger metaphorically. Yeah. We turn on. Are, you know, the salesperson we turn on the brand, we turn on the company that we felt did that to us. And so again, it may work in the short term. And I say in the book, pain is in fact, the ally of quick action.

Jason Frazell: 24:37

But

Tamsen Webster: 24:39

if somebody anticipates that they have to live with that decision and living with that decision means some kind of mental, physical, or emotional pain, not just discomfort, but pain, they won't. Do it because humans won't do it. We will not continue to do something that we find emotionally, mentally, physically painful to do. And so this is why. I, you know, the flip, if you're really looking for change, change that where, you know, yes, you're getting a yes, but it's a, it's a yes, you're more likely to retain, right? And that you're not going to have to go back and go over again. If you're getting a yes, that is going to create advocates where they can, they've got a story they can tell themselves to themselves about this and a story they can tell to other people, which is another place where a. decision made out of pain or anxiety breaks down, right? Because all of a sudden we try to explain why we did it to somebody else and, and all of a sudden we're like I don't have the same values as I do. Yeah, well, yeah, exactly. Well, when they explained it, it seemed really important, but now I can't, you know, and that's how we can lose it too. When you're trying to get the When you're trying to do the opposite of that, when you're trying to get a yes that lasts, then the mantra to yourself is don't introduce pain, reduce it, right? We are trying to figure out in how we present the change in, in the, in the, in what we're asking people to do as part of that change. We're trying to figure out how to frame it, how to stage it in every possible way. So we're, we are taking, making the biggest change that we can. out crossing that pain threshold. So, you know, so instead of asking someone to go from zero to 60, it might mean go zero to 10 for a little while, get them, get them used to that. Then we go, then we go, then we go. And does that mean that you might take longer to introduce the full change? Yes. Does it mean that you are also much more likely to never have to do that work again? Also, yes.

Jason Frazell: 26:56

Yes.

Tamsen Webster: 26:58

And it's redoing it that is more expensive, more traumatic, less likely to work because now people have developed essentially scar tissue against that effort. And so it's really about how can we do this in a way that works? forward for us, not just in the moment, but also works over time.

Jason Frazell: 27:20

Yeah. Brilliant. I want to now move into a framework that you, that you use as a way for folks in your work. And you talk a little bit about this in the book, about a way that you can look at a change in decision making. And I want to frame this up for the audience here. And It's like, how in the world could somebody make that decision? Like from our perspective, like, how is that, man, how can I vote for that person? What

Tamsen Webster: 27:48

are you thinking? What are

Jason Frazell: 27:50

you thinking?

Tamsen Webster: 27:51

Yeah. And

Jason Frazell: 27:51

then my generally thing is, well, obviously they're not, but it's from my own perspective.

Tamsen Webster: 27:56

Of course. Yeah.

Jason Frazell: 27:58

And, and so that, that is a normal, very, obviously everybody listens, that is a very normal reaction. Yes. And. Your hypothesis. I don't even know if it's a hypothesis. I would say it's not it's very evidence

Tamsen Webster: 28:09

based. Yes. It's an evidence based

Jason Frazell: 28:10

It's a truth that can be deadly to creating change.

Tamsen Webster: 28:13

Oh

Jason Frazell: 28:14

idea. So you have a so you have a framework I'd love to wrap up for today and talk a little bit about some Tangible ways that people as they're introducing change or suggesting change ways you can Yeah, from a decision making matrix go, Hey, this is a good idea or not as opposed to like, it feels good or the consultant told me,

Tamsen Webster: 28:33

right? So building actually on one, one of the things we were just talking about that painting is the enemy of longterm change. One of the most enduring emotionally painful sources of pain for all humans. So therefore it is. A thing to always keep in mind when you are framing a change coming up with one in the first place is that that source of the greatest pain is a violation of the law. of somebody's desired self concept. And what I mean by that is how they want to be seen

Jason Frazell: 29:04

by

Tamsen Webster: 29:04

themselves, by other people, by other people is particularly important because one thing we can rely on is that I think it's fair to say all humans, I need to find if that there's evidence to support this, but I would say that most functional humans operate from a desire, deep seated desire to be seen as smart. capable and good. So that's how I frame it as smart, capable, and good. And even if they don't believe, and plenty of people believe they are smart, capable, and good, but the reason why I like to frame it is they want to be seen as smart, capable, and good. It's because some people, you know, aren't so sure, but they really want to be seen as smart, capable, and good. And so because that is such a universal desire, motivation, element of our identity, we can use that as a check on A, how we're approaching change from our own standpoint, how we're approaching other people, and B, a check on how we are framing it. And here's what I mean. They want to be seen as smart, capable, and good. And so what we want to do is we want to act as if they are, and I know that sounds like obvious, but it isn't actually what we do most of the time. A lot of times in how we're framing messaging and change communications is really, if you boil it down, is you will be smart, capable, and good if you do this. Ah, yeah. We say it's con, we make it conditional. Sure. That a smart, capable, a good person would do this. Alright. No, that means you are telling them directly. It are indirectly that they are not smart, capable and good now. So again, they may act in the moment because it's painful that you don't see them that way right now, but their larger self concept is like, wait a minute, that person must think I'm stupid. Right. Yeah. And then to have said that, and then they're going to go like, well, I'm not. I mean, we just, most of us won't tolerate that long term. And so I have found, and I've seen that it saves so much time and effort and ill will to start from the perspective that somebody already is smart, capable and good. And so when you say to yourself, what were they thinking? Then the thing to add to that is. What were they thinking as a smart, capable, good person would, right? Because a smart, capable and good person is doing this. is thinking this way. So there must be something about it that makes sense to them. And it's not because they're not smart or not capable or not good. It's because there is something of value in whatever they don't want to let go of or whatever it is that they're doing. And back to Kahneman and loss aversion. That's really critical to understand because you either need to acknowledge that that thing may or may not go away. It may go away depending on what your, your, your thing is and account for it, right? Nature of hurt or pores of vacuum. You can't take away something that somebody values without supplying something else. Or once you understand what they are truly valuing in there, show the change as an. Alternative path to getting there. So they're not going to lose it at all. They still get to have that thing that they want. So the practical tactical thing that I present in the book to help with this is something I call the smart capable good test or the SCG test. And, and what it. What it is, is simply this. You're looking through every element of how you are interacting with someone. You can think of this from a marketing standpoint or business standpoint or leadership standpoint and saying, is every aspect of this message of this interaction, helping that person feel and reinforce their identity? re existing smart, capable goodness. Yeah. Right. And you know, one of the, you know, thanks to one of my colleagues in the message strategy space Shepard Smith for this example, but you can see, I would say that the following fails this test. Think about you are, you get a pop up for a special offer. of something. Let's say that you've already like closed out of something. You get that pop up as a special offer and on the button it says, no thanks. I like spending more money. Yeah. Does not make someone feel smart, capable and good.

Jason Frazell: 33:41

No.

Tamsen Webster: 33:42

In fact, it makes you go, you're a jerk. Like, I mean, you know, and maybe it gets someone to go, Oh wait, I'm spending more money. Ah, I think maybe I'm wrong here, but At the very least, put it this way, you're losing everybody as a customer who that is distasteful. When it's such an easy fix to say, I'm not ready right now, not yet, maybe later. No, thanks. Not for me. That's all you have to do. Right. That's all you have to do. And so it really does start from saying kind of just that, that presumption start from this presumption that somebody is already smart, capable, and good, because it will help you understand so much more. about why and how they see the world that they do, that they do. And even better, this is where my starry eyed idealist comes in, but it's actually really practical because I've seen it work over and over again in business. You can start to find the path to shared principles and shared values that allow you to move forward, even though your initial perspective was really quite far apart.

Jason Frazell: 34:52

Can you imagine if we Well, I'm speaking to somebody that you just called yourself a star eyed idealist, so I'm sure you can imagine this. You probably dream about this all the time. I'm also a

Tamsen Webster: 35:02

skeptic, so I'm a starry eyed skeptic. Let's put it that way. Yeah, starry eyed skeptic. I'm a starry eyed skeptic.

Jason Frazell: 35:07

Yeah. Where, imagine if we related to everybody else around us as smart, capable, and good. versus the us versus them.

Tamsen Webster: 35:18

I mean, here's the thing. The reason why I have hope for this is that there is some version of the principle that in the Christian world, in the Judeo Christian world, we, we embody in due unto others as they would have due unto you. But just about, I mean, truly every religion, every philosophy has some version of that, which means there is something that We believe as humans living in this world with other humans that there is something useful to us in one way or another. Maybe that's altruistic, maybe it's practical, maybe it's mercenary, whatever. There's something useful to us in extending to others the kind of treatment that we ourselves would value. Yeah. Or, to put a negative frame on it, not doing to others what we would not want to have done back to us. That gives, that's what gives me hope. Right? I like that. Because it says that no matter what, there are these beliefs that are deeper than identity, are deeper than culture, are deeper than Politics that are that are that for whatever motivation. We have them. We share them. And that is where I think that even if you just, you know, you say, well, imagine it. What would that would be? Try it for a day. Does in fact. Make you start to go, because treat it like a puzzle. Treat it like a puzzle. Like, you know, and this may be hard, particularly if this is like a family member that you're like, what the heck is

Jason Frazell: 37:03

this thing?

Tamsen Webster: 37:04

You know, and you can tell yourself they don't have good information, or their information sources are biased, or what, fine. They don't think so. Yeah. What is of value? What is of value? Because there is, if they are a smart, capable, good person, and I, and let's presume that they are, there is a very good reason why are they are thinking or acting the way they are. And if you care enough about the change, about the idea, about whatever it is, then I would suggest that. that it's worth the work to figure out what that thing is that they care about. So that you can find and start to like spot where the opening is between where you are going, like where, where you each are to where you both want to go.

Jason Frazell: 37:55

Tamsin, that's all brilliant. I'm gonna, we'll wrap for today and talk about Your book, which comes out October 8th, October 8th. We will, by the time we release this episode, it will be out and it's available at all major bookstores online. Very excited for you. Book number, I believe this is book number two, book number two,

Tamsen Webster: 38:16

number

Jason Frazell: 38:17

two. You have another book in you after this. And I know you just, I do.

Tamsen Webster: 38:20

Yeah. Well, I also started a doctorate program this summer, so there's no big deal. Just throw that on. You're

Jason Frazell: 38:25

writing, you're writing a thesis, which is its own version of a book, but

Tamsen Webster: 38:28

it is, yes. So we

Jason Frazell: 38:29

wanted to give you, Temps and I just wanted to give you a sneak preview of Chalk full of both concepts, but also practical ways to address change. Yes. I know that's important to you as people. Insights without action. Who cares? It's just a fun conversation. That's what I would say. So I want to thank you for coming back on again and excited to read the book. This is a near and dear to my heart as well. I work with clients on this all the time and it is not easy. And I want to thank you for putting out your good work in the world. And we will have you back on again, three more times for the jacket. Three more times to the jacket. We won't wait. We won't, we won't wait until next time you have a book coming out. We'll have you come on sooner. And we'll continue this conversation because I know the audience is going to love this because we all need to address this in some way.

Tamsen Webster: 39:15

We do. We do. We do. All right. I want to give,

Jason Frazell: 39:18

I want to give everybody a practice in real time here as we wrap up. Relate to the next few people that you immediately think, Oh, why? Why are they doing that? Or what's wrong with them? Relate to them as smart, capable, and good, and maybe ask them a question. Or questions about their motivations. And I think you'll, you'll learn a lot. I'm going to, I'm taking that for myself from here.

Tamsen Webster: 39:38

Excellent.

Jason Frazell: 39:39

Thank you so much. I love

Tamsen Webster: 39:40

that. Thank you so much.

Jason Frazell: 39:41

Thank you. So good to see you again.

Tamsen Webster: 39:42

Good to see you as well. Bye.

39:45

Thanks for listening to another episode of Talking to Cool People with Jason Frizzell. If you enjoyed today's episode, please tell your friends, follow us on Instagram and Facebook, and give us a shout out, or take a moment to leave a review on iTunes. If something from today's episode piqued your interest and you'd like to connect, email us at podcast at jasonfrizzell. com. We love hearing from our listeners because you're cool people too.